Orthodox integration of scripture

[Dietrich Johnson]

Growing up protestant, there seems to be more emphasis (in my experience) with scriptural memorization/reading/teaching than what I have seen in the EO Church thus far. But I am still early into my inquiring of EO as I seek this path.

For those of you who were Protestant before becoming Orthodox (or vice versa), how would you compare the immersing of scripture in both traditions?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Scripture was much more immersive in Orthodoxy because it composes most of our services as well as why we do what we do.

 

[Not David]

Growing up protestant, there seems to be more emphasis (in my experience) with scriptural memorization/reading/teaching than what I have seen in the EO Church thus far. But I am still early into my inquiring of EO as I seek this path.

For those of you who were Protestant before becoming Orthodox (or vice versa), how would you compare the immersing of scripture in both traditions?

I realized reading the Bible does not help if you don't understand what is going on. For example, I know someone who read the whole Bible, and when I told her about man being the head of the household, she said that versed does not apply since it was in the Old Testament.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

I realized reading the Bible does not help if you don't understand what is going on. For example, I know someone who read the whole Bible, and when I told her about man being the head of the household, she said that versed does not apply since it was in the Old Testament.

Sounds like she didn't read the New Testament verses about headship.

 

[truefiction1]

Growing up protestant, there seems to be more emphasis (in my experience) with scriptural memorization/reading/teaching than what I have seen in the EO Church thus far. But I am still early into my inquiring of EO as I seek this path.

For those of you who were Protestant before becoming Orthodox (or vice versa), how would you compare the immersing of scripture in both traditions?

By comparison, in everyday (or week) lives of Orthodox Christians there is much more exposure to the New Testament Scriptures, and the Old Testament not very much. We do hear Old Testament readings in Church, but with the exceptions of the Psalms, only on certain feast days, and usually always during the Vespers service. I have the sense that in Protestantism there is a greater exposure to Old Testament Scriptures than is found in the Orthodox experience. On certain days during Orthodox Holy week, however, there are many Old testament stories and prophecies read aloud. But this only takes place once per year.

With regards to memorizations of chapters and verses, certain Church Fathers were known to be remarkably strong in this regard. We, however, now have Google at our fingertips and can easily type in some words of a Biblical text and immediately find the chapters and verses, so we tend not to work on memorizing much these days.

I think it would be a very good thing to have the Psalms all memorized. But I've only managed to memorize a few, and even then I sometimes forget exactly how they go after a while. Some monastics can recite the entire Psalter by heart. What a rich prayer life that must be!

 

[HTacianas]

Growing up protestant, there seems to be more emphasis (in my experience) with scriptural memorization/reading/teaching than what I have seen in the EO Church thus far. But I am still early into my inquiring of EO as I seek this path.

For those of you who were Protestant before becoming Orthodox (or vice versa), how would you compare the immersing of scripture in both traditions?

As a former protestant I can give you my take on it. Protestants, at least those other than "high church" protestants, study the bible to determine what it means. The Orthodox study the bible to determine what it says. And there is distinct difference between the two. The bible is two thousand years old and is the most studied book in human history. At this point there is nothing new to discover about it. Where a protestant studies the bible to determine what it means, the Orthodox already know what it means. It means the same thing it has always meant.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

By comparison, in everyday (or week) lives of Orthodox Christians there is much more exposure to the New Testament Scriptures, and the Old Testament not very much. We do hear Old Testament readings in Church, but with the exceptions of the Psalms, only on certain feast days, and usually always during the Vespers service. I have the sense that in Protestantism there is a greater exposure to Old Testament Scriptures than is found in the Orthodox experience. On certain days during Orthodox Holy week, however, there are many Old testament stories and prophecies read aloud. But this only takes place once per year.

With regards to memorizations of chapters and verses, certain Church Fathers were known to be remarkably strong in this regard. We, however, now have Google at our fingertips and can easily type in some words of a Biblical text and immediately find the chapters and verses, so we tend not to work on memorizing much these days.

I think it would be a very good thing to have the Psalms all memorized. But I've only managed to memorize a few, and even then I sometimes forget exactly how they go after a while. Some monastics can recite the entire Psalter by heart. What a rich prayer life that must be!

That is an interesting insight regarding the Old and New Testament. Why is there not much exposure to the Old Testament in Orthodoxy?

 

[rakovsky]

The last few weeks it's been interesting for me pulling together Luther's and the foundational Lutheran declarations' several dozen statements on phrases resembling "Sola Scripture." It feels like a giant "mind-manipulation" through mental gymnastics. Most formally for Lutherans it seems defined in the Formula of Concord, where it claims, eg.:
"We believe, teach, and confess that the only rule and guiding principle according to which all teachings and teachers are to be evaluated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments alone…" (Book of Concord)

This demands mental manipulation and confusion in many ways in Luther's explanation, and still leaves a black hole. Luther admitted at times that there were topics and teachings that the Bible did not talk about, like whether to mix water with wine in the sacrament. In that case though, how can you judge this teaching about mixing wine and water with the only rule for judgment being the Bible alone?

Certainly Lutherans might give answers to to this question, but they have the nature of mental gymnastics, confusion, and mind-manipulation.

 

[rakovsky]

For those of you who were Protestant before becoming Orthodox (or vice versa), how would you compare the immersing of scripture in both traditions?

I am thinking about Evangelicals and Reformed Protestants in particular: With Protestants, you can have a Bible study group, we then read the Bible, and each person can say what they think the verse means. Often they will take some view or interpretation that they got from somewhere else (eg. a pastor's sermon), but won't cite the source. So there is an element of arbitrariness that depends on the individual Bible-reader, as well as an unrealistic presentation that what is just being taught is the Bible, not the pastor's personal fallible interpretation.

There is also a Protestant faction, maybe especially Lutherans and Anglicans, or even "Confessional Protestants" where Bible interpretation feels more rooted than in each individuals' own disparate perceptions, but in this case the rooting is going to be in the respective Confessions' takes on the Bible.

With the EO Church, you are going to get Bible interpretation that is anchored well in patristics collectively.

 

[rakovsky]

Sounds like she didn't read the New Testament verses about headship.

Dietrich,
She must have read the verses, according to what Not David explicitly stated. But the problem is one of judgment and anchoring an interpretation.
She could read those verses, and then interpret them the opposite way that you do.

Based on the non-Anglican, Protestant parameters of interpretation, especially as Luther laid them down, debates would go something like this:

• Reader A: "I'm just going by the Bible here. The Bible teaches X."
• Reader B: "That's just your interpretation. I'm just going by the Bible. The Bible teaches that X is wrong."
• Read A: "Scripture interprets Scripture. The Bible teaches X because verses A-Z agree with X."
• Reader B. "No, the Bible teaches that X is wrong because verses A-Z teach that X is wrong."
• Reader A. "We can use the Fathers and Councils, although only to understand the Bible and only when they are correct in interpreting it. They teach X."
• Reader B. "The Fathers and Councils are mistaken about X. The Bible teaches that X is wrong."
• Reader A. "If you don't agree that the Bible teaches X, then you're not teaching against the infallible Bible."
• Reader B. "I don't submit to your interpretations, just the Bible's. I'm starting my own Church."

Clearly, this is a practical recipe for dozens or hundreds of break ups of Church organizations.

 

[rakovsky]

That is an interesting insight regarding the Old and New Testament. Why is there not much exposure to the Old Testament in Orthodoxy?

I don't agree that there is "not much" exposure to the OT. EOs have a yearly calendar of all OT and NT Bible chapter readings.

Nonetheless, with Protestantism, you could in practice have relatively much more time spent on Bible readings than on other areas like studying Patristics or councils.

For example, Luther said:

The dear fathers wished, by their writings, to lead us to the Scriptures, but we so use them as to be led away from the Scriptures, though the Scriptures alone are our vineyard in which we ought to work and toil.
Luther 1520, in: Open letter to the Christian nobility (Reform Part 3.25).

And:
"..in actual life we should incline to the needy; and in our studies and contemplative life only to the Scriptures..."
Source: Luther, Sermon on Second Christmas Day

Luther explained that we should use the Fathers, but only to get into the Bible. He seems to have a "mental gymnastic" theorizing that if you only use the Fathers for this purpose, then you are really "only" studying the Bible.

 

[Lukaris]

I think the Lord provided the framework for our faith by actual compression of the law and prophets by His commandments ( see Matthew 7:12, per Matthew 7:1-12, Matthew 22:36-40). It seems these and the Sermon on the Mount were the foundation of the early church.

The early surviving church manual called the Didache seems an invaluable example of testimony of the early church: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html


I believe what the risen Lord preached in Luke 24 is what formed the faith of the early church. He clearly affirms what we know as our Bible but that took longer for us to understand. A basis of holy tradition had to be established. Probably the earliest surviving, systematic preaching of the Bible came from St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....onstration_Of_The_Apostolic_Preaching,_EN.pdf

 

[peregrinus2017]

In my experience of various protestant denominations, there was certainly a lot of bible study. But it felt more like something external that we used to try to compress or conform ourselves to the image of Christ we perceived there. While in Orthodoxy, scripture emanates from the very heart of the Church, transforming and conforming us from the inside out.

 

[ArmyMatt]

In my experience of various protestant denominations, there was certainly a lot of bible study. But it felt more like something external that we used to try to compress or conform ourselves to the image of Christ we perceived there. While in Orthodoxy, scripture emanates from the very heart of the Church, transforming and conforming us from the inside out.

well said

 

[truefiction1]

That is an interesting insight regarding the Old and New Testament. Why is there not much exposure to the Old Testament in Orthodoxy?

It's largely because During Divine Liturgy, which is the prime, weekly service attended by the majority of Orthodox Church members, only readings from the Gospels and Epistles are read and preached on. That is our custom for as long as I remember.

Old Testament readings are usually read during Vespers service, but only on the eve of major feast days. Vespers is typically not attended by very many people.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

It's largely because During Divine Liturgy, which is the prime, weekly service attended by the majority of Orthodox Church members, only readings from the Gospels and Epistles are read and preached on. That is our custom for as long as I remember.

Old Testament readings are usually read during Vespers service, but only on the eve of major feast days. Vespers is typically not attended by very many people.

I notice also in the daily readings that it lists an Epistle and a Gospel. Do most Orthodox not read much of the OT regularly, or is it the other way around?

 

[rakovsky]

EOs have a yearly calendar of all OT and NT Bible chapter readings.

See eg. this list:
Daily Orthodox Scriptures | Ancient Faith Ministries

February 9, 2022
Leviticus 19-21; Psalm 36:21·40; Proverbs 7:25·27; Matthew 25:1·30
24:51

 

[Lukaris]

Our most concentrated Old Testament readings are during Lent in which our daily readings are from Genesis, Isaiah, & Proverbs. Still, during Liturgy, the scripture reading is of the epistle and Gospel. I believe during pre sanctified liturgy, a couple weeknights per week, during Lent, the readings from Genesis, Isaiah, & Proverbs are heard alongside increased Psalms.

Side note, Psalm 103 ( Psalms 104 in west) is always read in the beginning of Saturday evening vespers

https://antiochianprodsa.blob.core.windows.net/websiteattachments/presanctified_liturgy.pdf

 

[truefiction1]

I notice also in the daily readings that it lists an Epistle and a Gospel. Do most Orthodox not read much of the OT regularly, or is it the other way around?

I would say that most don't read the OT regularly. The Orthodox emphasis is on learning the sayings of Christ and then keeping them.

 

[Michael V. Pardo]

As a former protestant I can give you my take on it. Protestants, at least those other than "high church" protestants, study the bible to determine what it means. The Orthodox study the bible to determine what it says. And there is distinct difference between the two. The bible is two thousand years old and is the most studied book in human history. At this point there is nothing new to discover about it. Where a protestant studies the bible to determine what it means, the Orthodox already know what it means. It means the same thing it has always meant.

I'm not orthodox, but born again (holding to most of reformed doctrine). I can't speak for anyone but myself and my brethren also professing a personal relationship with God, but we find fellowship with God in reading scripture (not exclusively but in learning scriptures meaning and application to life.) I've read through the Bible dozens of times, and every time the Lord teaches me new things about Himself, about myself, and about life.

It's wonderful to be taught by the Lord in scripture and in life. When the Lord illuminates a verse, it's His Spirit saying "see this, it's about Jesus Christ," or "it's about you and your sin", or "its about that situation in school, or at work."

When you're walking on your way and the Lord shows you someone and gives you verses in remembrance, He's saying this person is like this and needs this.

The scripture is light for our path, not just a rule book or instruction manual. How do you live if it isn't by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God? How are you lead by His Spirit if you don't know His word and how He applies it in you and through you to the situations of life?

You don't have to know the scriptures to receive His Spirit, but His Spirit works His will according to His word. How can you pray according to His will without knowing what He's said?

Is Christianity just "Judaism 102", studying scriptures to build a philosophy, or is it knowing God through His Spirit received by faith in His Son, and walking with Him in obedience?

I apologize if you receive this as criticism. I'm unfamiliar with any orthodoxy except Roman Catholicism (which I abandoned at the age of 13). But how do you perceive your faith, as religion, or as relationship with our Lord and creator?