Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

They come from Scripture. You can continue to wait patiently for the Resurrection and the Life. I accept Jesus as always being the Resurrection and the Life.

How about actually showing us clear Scripture that shows that believers receive incorruptible bodies before the last trumpet instead of always avoiding the issues or presenting your own opinions as facts.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What makes time any different? Now who is being temporal minded?

Those born in the last 100 years did not spend 1000 years with Christ either.

Revelation 20 is speaking about "the souls" (plural) collectively reigning for the symbolic millennial period. This does not exclude those who die “in Christ” today from joining the overall ongoing heavenly millennial reign from the first Advent. If I was to say that ‘Americans have been standing for freedom for a few hundred years’, that does not in any way negate or exclude current Americans from being part of that ongoing group. That did not require them to be alive 250 years ago when their forefathers were pioneering the way. All would consider them part of that continuous fight for freedom.

Similarly, the Christian witness has been powerfully alive in the British Isles since before the Reformation 500 years ago. However, the current believer in the United Kingdom weren’t around 500 years ago, although they would very definitely be considered part of that great general cohesive throng that have stood for the truth of God’s Word. Revelation 20 is therefore similarly talking about the collective reign of the saints during (this so far) 2,000 years intra-advent period.

 

[Timtofly]

How about actually showing us clear Scripture that shows that believers receive incorruptible bodies before the last trumpet instead of always avoiding the issues or presenting your own opinions as facts.

2 Corinthians 5

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 20 is speaking about "the souls" (plural) collectively reigning for the symbolic millennial period. This does not exclude those who die “in Christ” today from joining the overall ongoing heavenly millennial reign from the first Advent. If I was to say that ‘Americans have been standing for freedom for a few hundred years’, that does not in any way negate or exclude current Americans from being part of that ongoing group. That did not require them to be alive 250 years ago when their forefathers were pioneering the way. All would consider them part of that continuous fight for freedom.

Because you would have to conclude procreation in that equation. Do you or don't you allow for procreation?

 

[Timtofly]

Similarly, the Christian witness has been powerfully alive in the British Isles since before the Reformation 500 years ago. However, the current believer in the United Kingdom weren’t around 500 years ago, although they would very definitely be considered part of that great general cohesive throng that have stood for the truth of God’s Word. Revelation 20 is therefore similarly talking about the collective reign of the saints during (this so far) 2,000 years intra-advent period.

There have been billions of souls conceived in the last 1991 years. There will be billions more in the next 1000 years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

2 Corinthians 5

But that is shown to come at the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [Gr. phthartos or perishable] inherit incorruption [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable]. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed [Gr. allasso], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable], and we shall be changed [Gr. allasso]. For this corruptible [Gr. phthartos or perishable] must put on incorruption [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable], and this mortal [Gr. thnētos] must put on immortality [Gr. athanasia or deathlessness]. So when this corruptible [Gr. phthartos or perishable] shall have put on incorruption [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable], and this mortal [Gr. thnētos] shall have put on immortality [Gr. athanasia or deathlessness], then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage is describing the great supernatural change that occurs to God’s people when Jesus returns and takes them from a temporal fallen “flesh and blood” existence to an eternal glorified condition. Corruptibility and mortality are shown here to be interlinked. Incorruption and immortality are also shown to be enjoined. They describe the two diverse states existing in two completely different dimensions.

This Greek word allasso used to describe the glorification of the earth in Hebrews 1:10-12 is also used to describe the glorification of the elect in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

 

[sovereigngrace]

There have been billions of souls conceived in the last 1991 years. There will be billions more in the next 1000 years.

Not so. Never. You keep claiming this but refuse to address the Scriptures that forbid this error. You populate your so-called future millennium with countless mortal wicked. But the Bible forbids that. You have billions marrying, procreating and dying and crying, when Scripture forbids. It will never happen. I suspect you know that.

Your billions of wicked mortals are prohibited from the age to come and the new earth. Only the righteous are qualified to inherit the new earth. Mortals and the wicked do not survive the coming of Christ or are qualified to populate the new earth as you allege. They are destroyed by fire. We have repeatedly showed you that and you have rejected what the text is stating. You are promoting personal opinion here to sustain your beliefs.

Proverbs 2:21-22 states: “For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.”

Even in the Old Testament, when the new age or world is mentioned, it is always identified exclusively with the righteous. This is not strange when we consider it is a prepared place for a prepared people. This is an arrangement where the wicked and wickedness are prohibited from.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait `upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Again, this is a truth that is repeated clearly and unambiguously throughout both Testaments.

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

The wicked are not worthy to inherit the new glorified earth and the perfect age to come.

Psalm 37:28-36 continues, “For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever ... Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.”

Here, “evildoers” and “the wicked” are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations “those that wait upon the LORD,” “the meek” and “His saints” refer to the righteous. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. Can you not see that? There are only ever 2 peoples. The meek alone possess the new earth - those that have been redeemed by His precious blood.

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

This is the truth that is repeated by Christ in the New Testament. We see that confirmed in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

This current earth must be perfected. It must be glorified. It must be brought back to the paradise it was before the fall. Every time Scripture speaks of the believer receiving his inheritance (the kingdom/earth) it also shows the wicked receiving their eternal punishment.

The glorified saints are said to inherit the earth. This is assuredly talking about a new glorified earth, not this current corrupt arrangement that they have just departed. Their inheritance is not another period of corruption, rebellion and despair. They have just escaped that. The promised earth in view is actually depicted as a reward for the faithful. It cannot therefore be shared with the wicked.

1 Corinthians 6:9 also confirms: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

According to Scripture the ungodly are forbidden from this new glorified earth. The wicked are left outside the eternal kingdom.

When Jesus comes it is the end! The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

The new earth and the age to come is reserved solely for God’s people. The wicked will not see Christ’s face in the new arrangement because they are not qualified to inherit it. They will be destroyed at His glorious second advent.

 

[Timtofly]

But that is shown to come at the last trumpet.

Says who? Paul did not say at the last Trumpet in 2 Corinthians 5. He did not even say the last Trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4.

The same thing happens at the Second Coming, but Paul was talking about resurrection in general, not some point in time.

You can plan on spending time in the grave, but the redeemed do not taste death, so if time in the grave is not tasting death, why did the OT redeemed taste death in the grave. A phenomenon that ended at the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so. Never. You keep claiming this but refuse to address the Scriptures that forbid this error. You populate your so-called future millennium with countless mortal wicked. But the Bible forbids that. You have billions marrying, procreating and dying and crying, when Scripture forbids. It will never happen. I suspect you know that.

Your billions of wicked mortals are prohibited from the age to come and the new earth. Only the righteous are qualified to inherit the new earth. Mortals and the wicked do not survive the coming of Christ or are qualified to populate the new earth as you allege. They are destroyed by fire. We have repeatedly showed you that and you have rejected what the text is stating. You are promoting personal opinion here to sustain your beliefs.

Proverbs 2:21-22 states: “For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.”

Even in the Old Testament, when the new age or world is mentioned, it is always identified exclusively with the righteous. This is not strange when we consider it is a prepared place for a prepared people. This is an arrangement where the wicked and wickedness are prohibited from.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait `upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Again, this is a truth that is repeated clearly and unambiguously throughout both Testaments.

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

The wicked are not worthy to inherit the new glorified earth and the perfect age to come.

Psalm 37:28-36 continues, “For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever ... Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.”

Here, “evildoers” and “the wicked” are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations “those that wait upon the LORD,” “the meek” and “His saints” refer to the righteous. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. Can you not see that? There are only ever 2 peoples. The meek alone possess the new earth - those that have been redeemed by His precious blood.

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

This is the truth that is repeated by Christ in the New Testament. We see that confirmed in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

This current earth must be perfected. It must be glorified. It must be brought back to the paradise it was before the fall. Every time Scripture speaks of the believer receiving his inheritance (the kingdom/earth) it also shows the wicked receiving their eternal punishment.

The glorified saints are said to inherit the earth. This is assuredly talking about a new glorified earth, not this current corrupt arrangement that they have just departed. Their inheritance is not another period of corruption, rebellion and despair. They have just escaped that. The promised earth in view is actually depicted as a reward for the faithful. It cannot therefore be shared with the wicked.

1 Corinthians 6:9 also confirms: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

According to Scripture the ungodly are forbidden from this new glorified earth. The wicked are left outside the eternal kingdom.

When Jesus comes it is the end! The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

The new earth and the age to come is reserved solely for God’s people. The wicked will not see Christ’s face in the new arrangement because they are not qualified to inherit it. They will be destroyed at His glorious second advent.

You are the one calling resurrected redeemed wicked sinners. Not me.

Please describe a resurrection that is not physical.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are the one calling resurrected redeemed wicked sinners. Not me.

Please describe a resurrection that is not physical.

These satanists that overrun your millennium follow their master Satan in his quest to overthrown the people of God at the end of your Millennium. You depict billions of religious phonies giving feigned worship to Jesus but wholesale allegiance to Satan, and all this in the physical presence of Jesus. These are the biggest turn-coats in history.

 

[Timtofly]

These satanists that overrun your millennium follow their master Satan in his quest to overthrown the people of God at the end of your Millennium. You depict billions of religious phonies giving feigned worship to Jesus but wholesale allegiance to Satan, and all this in the physical presence of Jesus. These are the biggest turn-coats in history.

Not sure why you keep accusing God of failure? Are you bringing this up for my benefit or God's? Because it is His Word you are trashing, not mine. You are the one who knows how many are going to rebel, because you keep giving them some kind of street credit.

Do you also go around pointing out the 100% fail rate for the Garden of Eden like it is some Biblical teacher's fault, that Adam disobeyed God? Seems that is a bigger turn-coat event in history, than your inside knowledge of some future event, that you keep blaming me for.

This is all your argument, not even mine. Yet you keep posting the same nonsense over and over again, like you are expecting some kind of response to vindicate your own private interpretation of God's Word.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not sure why you keep accusing God of failure? Are you bringing this up for my benefit or God's? Because it is His Word you are trashing, not mine. You are the one who knows how many are going to rebel, because you keep giving them some kind of street credit.

Do you also go around pointing out the 100% fail rate for the Garden of Eden like it is some Biblical teacher's fault, that Adam disobeyed God? Seems that is a bigger turn-coat event in history, than your inside knowledge of some future event, that you keep blaming me for.

This is all your argument, not even mine. Yet you keep posting the same nonsense over and over again, like you are expecting some kind of response to vindicate your own private interpretation of God's Word.

Stop avoiding the obvious. Are Gog and Magog wicked sinners or righteous saints?

 

[Timtofly]

Stop avoiding the obvious. Are Gog and Magog wicked sinners or righteouss saints?

They are those at the edges of society. Neither. Your question does not apply until after God judges their hearts. Do you think Christians are OK to go around and pick and choose who is righteous or wicked?

You have not even stated where these come from much less their state of mind.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They are those at the edges of society. Neither. Your question does not apply until after God judges their hearts. Do you think Christians are OK to go around and pick and choose who is righteous or wicked?

You have not even stated where these come from much less their state of mind.

Where does Scripture talk about such a 3rd company as "those at the edges of society"? So, you have saved, lost and "those at the edges of society." The saved are rescued when Jesus comes and the wicked are destroyed. Then you invent this 3rd group (to allow your theology) that are too righteous to be destroyed but too wicked to be caught up. This is ridiculous.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”

The New Testament is very careful in defining who and what a child of God is and who and what a child of the devil is. There is absolutely no ambiguity on this subject. There is no neutrality with Jesus. There is no room for fence-sitting when it comes to Him. You are either for Him or against Him. The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

Romans 5:12, 15, 18-19 says, “as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many ... as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

The first Adam was the federal head of man through natural birth; Christ (the last Adam) is the federal head of all those who have entered into salvation via the second birth. These are two diverse companies of people. These two groups cover the whole remit of humankind. If men aren’t represented in Christ then they are represented in Adam. If they are found in Christ then Christ has bore their sin and endowed them with His robes of righteousness. They are accounted acceptable before God, through the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. He entered into a covenant to redeem a lost people. In that eternal covenant our sins where imputed to Christ and His righteousness was imputed to us.

All our legal or covenant responsibilities where rested upon Christ, and all His legal or covenant merits were attributed to us. This work is the eternal basis of our justification by faith. Spiritual life can only be found in Christ alone. Those that are outside of Christ are destined to a lost eternity.

If your 3rd company are not “in Christ” and not “in Adam” who are they in?

Those who only have one birthday, a natural birth, are “in Adam” and are consequently condemned of the Lord, and end up in hell. Those who experience the second birth, are “in Christ,” and experience "justification of life" and make it to heaven. There is no 3rd group.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does Scripture talk about such a 3rd company as "those at the edges of society"? So, you have saved, lost and "those at the edges of society." The saved are rescued when Jesus comes and the wicked are destroyed. Then you invent this 3rd group to allow your theology that are too righteous to be destroyed but too wicked to be caught up. This is ridiculous.

There is no third group. You invent a third group, not me.

If you don't think any human can be deceived by Satan, you do not accept reality.

There is only one group, and then those deceived. The deceived are consumed by fire, then dead. Still only one group alive.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There is no third group. You invent a third group, not me.

If you don't think any human can be deceived by Satan, you do not accept reality.

There is only one group, and then those deceived. The deceived are consumed by fire, then dead. Still only one group alive.

Was that a hard question to answer?

You said Gog and Magog are neither wicked sinners or righteous saints "they are those at the edges of society." What does that mean? Who are they? They are obviously a 3rd group you are inventing that are unknown to Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Was that a hard question to answer?

You said Gog and Magog are neither wicked sinners or righteous saints "they are those at the edges of society." What does that mean? Who are they? They are obviously a 3rd group you are inventing that are unknown to Scripture.

Ask the homeless on the edge of society if they feel like your third group of people in life.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ask the homeless on the edge of society if they feel like your third group of people in life.

What are you talking about? No such thing as a 3rd group. You have invented that to fit your theology

 

[Timtofly]

What are you talking about? No such thing as a 3rd group. You have invented that to fit your theology

No I have not. You keep foisting such nonsense upon my point, where none even exist. You have not even defined the group alive on earth. Now you have a third group skipping past even a second group. Seems like you can not even keep your own argument straight.

There is only one group ressurected in Revelation 20:4. They have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They do not sin nor have a sin nature. You have declared they cannot procreate. Yet you have no verse to back up this claim. So it seems to me, you just declare it all in the here and now to avoid contradicting your avoidance of the facts.

The Millennium is not the "age to come", which is the non procreation "point", you foist on the soon coming Millennium. The Cross and the resurrection out of Abraham's bosom into Paradise was the "age to come". That is what the here and now is, literally. They are not up in Paradise making babies. No one currently after the first death is making babies, because the church is gathered from the earth, where procreation will always be a fact of life.

Revelation 20:4 is specifically for having procreation on earth. All of Adam's flesh and blood had to shed that corruptible sin nature flesh. They all physically died. Now the Millennium is to populate the earth after sin has been eradicated.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No I have not. You keep foisting such nonsense upon my point, where none even exist. You have not even defined the group alive on earth. Now you have a third group skipping past even a second group. Seems like you can not even keep your own argument straight.

There is only one group ressurected in Revelation 20:4. They have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They do not sin nor have a sin nature. You have declared they cannot procreate. Yet you have no verse to back up this claim. So it seems to me, you just declare it all in the here and now to avoid contradicting your avoidance of the facts.

The Millennium is not the "age to come", which is the non procreation "point", you foist on the soon coming Millennium. The Cross and the resurrection out of Abraham's bosom into Paradise was the "age to come". That is what the here and now is, literally. They are not up in Paradise making babies. No one currently after the first death is making babies, because the church is gathered from the earth, where procreation will always be a fact of life.

Revelation 20:4 is specifically for having procreation on earth. All of Adam's flesh and blood had to shed that corruptible sin nature flesh. They all physically died. Now the Millennium is to populate the earth after sin has been eradicated.

Stop avoiding the obvious: is it sinful for these billions of Millennial inhabitants to reject Christ and righteousness and follow Satan in your estimation?