WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

Enjoyin' the grand run-around?

What run around would that be?

 

[Clare73]

Think it through. If you do not know God's Word you do not know of Christ or His atoning blood (Romans 10:17). Which means to believe and follow what Gods' Word says as it is written "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17

Take Care.

Faith in what, for salvation?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Faith in what, for salvation?

Salvation is from sin. The answer is in the post you are quoting from. Gods' Word (Romans 10:17).

 

[Clare73]

Ignored.

Precisely. . .the only choice left when you can't address the question.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Precisely.

Your even now taking my posts out of context. The whole post says that your post was ignored because you were non-responsive to the post you are quoting from that already addresses your post that you were repeating. As shown from the scriptures, in the linked post you are quoting from you were disregarding scripture context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 (see post # 631 linked)

 

[Clare73]

Faith in what, for salvation?

Salvation is from sin.

Salvation is from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).

The answer is in the post you are quoting from. Gods' Word (Romans 10:17).

Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Full context to the conversation added in.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Think it through. If you do not know God's Word you do not know of Christ or His atoning blood (Romans 10:17). Which means we receive God's salvation by believing and following what Gods' Word says as it is written "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17

Your response here...

Faith in what for salvation?

My response...

LoveGodsWord said: Salvation is from sin. The answer is in the post you are quoting from. Gods' Word (Romans 10:17).

Your response...

Salvation is from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).
.

Gods wrath is because of sin (Romans 6:23) and not believing and following God's Word *John 3:36.

John 3:36 He that believes (believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes (believing) not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

Why?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As posted earlier, think it through. If you do not know God's Word you do not know of Christ or His atoning blood (Romans 10:17). Which means our salvation comes by believing and following what Gods' Word says as it is written "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17.


Take Care

 

[Clare73]

Faith in what, for salvation?

Salvation is from sin.

Salvation is from the wrath of God.

It's just so hard to say that salvation is by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It's just so hard to say that salvation is by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ?

Not at all. It comes back to what I posted in the beginning of our discussion by quoting Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. There is no faith without God's Word that we are to believe and follow. According to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23) and without faith it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. *Hebrews 11:6.

 

[klutedavid]

Which you left out, indeed!


And what law did the people receive? . . .the people received the Mosaic law, not the laws for the priesthood.

And what happened to that law which the people received? . . .it was set aside (Hebrews 7:18a).

Which law was set aside? . . .the one that was weak and useless to make anything perfect (Hebrews 7:18b). . .the same law of Romans 8:3 that was powerless, which in Romans 8:3 is the Mosaic law given to the people.

So what law was changed with the change of the priesthood? . . .the law which the priesthood administered to the people (Hebrews 7:11), the law that was given to the people under the priesthood, (Hebrews 7:11), and not the laws of the priesthood.

Please explain the meaning of the parenthetical, "for on the basis of (under) the priesthood, the law was given to the people," being true to its words, context and to apostolic teaching (Hebrews 7:11).

And now comes the grand run-around. . .wait for it!

Waiting for the magic wand.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Waiting for the magic wand.

The magic wand is Gods' Word. It has been provided to you.

 

[klutedavid]

Not at all. It comes back to what I posted in the beginning of our discussion by quoting Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. There is no faith without God's Word that we are to believe and follow. According to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23) and without faith it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. *Hebrews 11:6.

You quoted the verse below.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The 'word of God' could be the scripture itself.

The Greek incidentally has Christos, so I would throw your translation in the bin.

Here are two far more accurate translations.

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

NET Bible
Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

 

[klutedavid]

Not at all. It comes back to what I posted in the beginning of our discussion by quoting Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. There is no faith without God's Word that we are to believe and follow. According to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23) and without faith it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. *Hebrews 11:6.

Another puzzling statement of yours.

"There is no faith without God's Word"

Do you mean, Jesus is God's Word, or do you mean the scripture is God's Word?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You quoted the verse below.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The 'word of God' could be the scripture itself.

The Greek incidentally has Christos, so I would throw your translation in the bin.

Here are two far more accurate translations.

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

NET Bible
Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ.

It depends on the Greek manuscript your using. The "christos" reading is from the new translations and the older translations use a different Greek manuscript like the ones shown below. The traditional text reading (word of God) is supported by the first corrector of Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, the first corrector of D, K, P, Psi, 33, 614, 1241, 1881, and the vast majority of Greek manuscripts. It is also found in Clement. The modern critical text reading is supported by the original hand of Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, among a few others. According to the critical apparatus it also appears (“vid”) but apparently the reading is uncertain (source).

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme)

Beza Greek New Testament 1598
Ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς· ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

I personally prefer the above older translations over the new ones but it makes little difference to the scripture meaning as Jesus is the living Word of God and is God who has given us the written Word of God that testifies of him. We receive faith therefore from hearing and hearing from the written Word of God/Christ *Romans 10:17.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Another puzzling statement of yours.

"There is no faith without God's Word"

Do you mean, Jesus is God's Word, or do you mean the scripture is God's Word?

Nothing to be puzzled about a simple statement based on scripture. Jesus is the living Word of God according to John 1:1-4; 14 who has given us His recorded written Word that we are to have faith in.

 

[Clare73]

What run around would that be?

Three guesses. . .the first two don't count.

 

[Clare73]

What run around would that be?

Okay, skip the three guesses, they don't count anyway.

So for starters, there could be my response of post #629 (following) to your argument regarding Hebrews 7:11-18 being about a change in the law for the priesthood rather than a change in the law for the people; i.e., the Mosaic laws.

And which by the way incurred that very grand run-around which it predicted.

Hebrews 7: 11-18 [11], If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law,

And what law did the people receive? . . .the people received the Mosaic law, not the laws for the priesthood.

And what happened to that law which the people received? . . .it was set aside (Hebrews 7:18a).

Which law was set aside? . . .the one that was weak and useless to make anything perfect (Hebrews 7:18b). . .the same law of Romans 8:3 that was powerless, which in Romans 8:3 is the Mosaic law given to the people.

So what law was changed with the change of the priesthood? . . .the law which the priesthood administered to the people (Hebrews 7:11), the law that was given to the people under the priesthood, (Hebrews 7:11), and not the laws of the priesthood.

Please explain the meaning of the parenthetical, "for on the basis of (under) the priesthood, the law was given to the people," being true to its words, context and to apostolic teaching (Hebrews 7:11).

And now comes the grand run-around. . .wait for it!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Okay, skip the three guesses, they don't count anyway.

So for starters, there could be my response of post #629 (following) to your argument regarding Hebrews 7:11-18 being about a change in the law for the priesthood rather than a change in the law for the people; i.e., the Mosaic laws.

And which by the way incurred that very grand run-around which it predicted.

Hebrews 7: 11-18 [11], If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law,

And what law did the people receive? . . .the people received the Mosaic law, not the laws for the priesthood.

And what happened to that law which the people received? . . .it was set aside (Hebrews 7:18a).

Which law was set aside? . . .the one that was weak and useless to make anything perfect (Hebrews 7:18b). . .the same law of Romans 8:3 that was powerless, which in Romans 8:3 is the Mosaic law given to the people.

So what law was changed with the change of the priesthood? . . .the law which the priesthood administered to the people (Hebrews 7:11), the law that was given to the people under the priesthood, (Hebrews 7:11), and not the laws of the priesthood.

Please explain the meaning of the parenthetical, "for on the basis of (under) the priesthood, the law was given to the people," being true to its words, context and to apostolic teaching (Hebrews 7:11).

And now comes the grand run-around. . .wait for it!

You repeated yourself again while ignoring this...

Sorry I respectfully disagree as shown by the scripture and chapter context and subject matter your disregarding. It seems you think that the law mentioned in Hebrews 7 is talking about Gods' 10 commandments? Prove it? I bet you cannot because the chapter context and subject matter is to the laws of the Levitical Priesthood.

Here is the context and subject matter you left out which is the changing of the law of the Levitical Priesthood because Jesus was of the tribe of Judah (only Levites could be Priests under old covenant law)...

Hebrews 7: 11-18 [11], If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [12], For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13], For he of whom these things are spoken pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14], For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. [15], And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there rises another priest, [16], Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17], For he testifies, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [18], For there is truly a cancellation of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Hebrews 7:28, For the law makes men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, makes the Son, who is consecrated for ever more.

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience

The changing of the law in Hebrews 7 is the changing of the law of the Priesthood and the old covenant laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices not Gods' 10 commandments. Your disregarding chapter context and subject matter as your friend was earlier and reading into the scriptures (eisegesis) what the scriptures do not say or do not teach.

Hebrews 7:11? Under the Levitical Priesthood the people received the laws for remission of sins through animal sacrifices and sin offerings for blood atonement (see Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10) not God's 10 commandments. This is the context and subject matter your disregarding in Hebrews. Also, think it through, the people did not receive Gods' 10 commandments from the Levitical Priesthood or Aaron did they? They received it directly from God and through Moses (tables of stone). Your claim that Hebrews 7 is talking about Gods' 10 commandments is simply not biblical or supported by scripture. As shown through scripture context and subject matter, the runaround is your side not mine so we may have to agree to disagree.

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

delete sorry double post.

 

[klutedavid]

It depends on the Greek manuscript your using. The "christos" reading is from the new translations and the older translations use a different Greek manuscript like the ones shown below. The traditional text reading (word of God) is supported by the first corrector of Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, the first corrector of D, K, P, Psi, 33, 614, 1241, 1881, and the vast majority of Greek manuscripts. It is also found in Clement. The modern critical text reading is supported by the original hand of Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, among a few others. According to the critical apparatus it also appears (“vid”) but apparently the reading is uncertain (source).

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme)

Beza Greek New Testament 1598
Ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς· ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ (theós | G2316; meaning God supreme).

I personally prefer the above older translations over the new ones but it makes little difference to the scripture meaning as Jesus is the living Word of God and is God who has given us the written Word of God that testifies of him. We receive faith therefore from hearing and hearing from the written Word of God/Christ *Romans 10:17.

Take Care.

Interesting reply.

You prefer the older translations which are based on newer source texts. Get your head around that one. I prefer translations that use the oldest manuscripts available.

The KJV for example used the Vulgate at times during the translation. Which seems odd considering the Vulgate was regarded as the Catholic Bible.

The KJV used the Masoretic Text for the Old Testament but inserted verses from the Septuagint. That is, when the Masoretic Text was in conflict with quotations from the apostles.

I prefer the Septuagint Old Testament in the Vulgate (382 AD), no insertions are necessary to correct the text. Unlike the KJV which is a hybrid of Septuagint and Masoretic Text.