Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Is 66:23 says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross - how many of the rituals that you listed do you think exist in the New Earth?

So then the same "Sabbath" known to Isaiah and his readers - and kept by Isaiah and his readers - continues all the way to the New Earth.

Are we in the new Earth yet?

Not yet... so we just keep on doing as Isaiah pointed out.

 

[klutedavid]

Not true.

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31


In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments"

Which commandments can you identify in Matthew 19?

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

There seems to be many more commandments. The young man obeyed the ten commandments but failed the test. The young man failed the wealth test.

In Rom 13 - Paul says to "keep those same commandments"

You missed this one.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

HE WHO LOVES HIS NEIGHBOR HAS FULFILLED THE LAW

I choose the Bible.

You chose an interpretation of the Bible.

 

[klutedavid]

Not true.

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31

The verse you quoted does not mention the ten commandments.

In fact we establish the LAW

So you declare the law and the prophets, that we must obey?

 

[BobRyan]

The verse you quoted does not mention the ten commandments.

In fact we establish the LAW

So you declare the law and the prophets, that we must obey?

You need to keep reading --

according to Paul.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

... 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

And even in the in the NT - "Sin" by definition is "transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31


In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments"
In Rom 13 - Paul says to "keep those same commandments"

I choose the Bible.

Eph 6:2 "'honor your father and mother' which is the first commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid-unit of TEN

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[BobRyan]

Which commandments can you identify in Matthew 19?

All of them in Matt 19 come from the "LAW of Moses" including Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and most of them come from the TEN Commandments.

What you don't find in that list are commands like this

"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7,
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Have no other God's before Me" Ex 20

But we know they are included non-the-less
​

As you and I have noticed a few dozen times by now.

 

[klutedavid]

You need to keep reading --

according to Paul.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

... 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

And even in the in the NT - "Sin" by definition is "transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31


In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments"
In Rom 13 - Paul says to "keep those same commandments"

I choose the Bible.

Eph 6:2 "'honor your father and mother' which is the first commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid-unit of TEN

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Yes Bob, I know your argument. But most of the verses say "law' not commandments, and all of them, never, ever, say 'the ten commandments'.

We establish the law and the prophets because they make us aware of the scale of sin.

Yet there is sin that is not visible in the Old Testament, as shown below.

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

How do you interpret that passage above?

 

[klutedavid]

All of them in Matt 19 come from the "LAW of Moses" including Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and most of them come from the TEN Commandments.

What you don't find in that list are commands like this

"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7,
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Have no other God's before Me" Ex 20

But we know they are included non-the-less
​

As you and I have noticed a few dozen times by now.

I don't read the commandments in Exodus because Jesus, expanded on that law in Exodus. To the point that the law is impossible to obey.

I have warned you before about quoting from Exodus, that is misleading.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not murder,’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be answerable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell

So Bob, is it 'thou shall not kill' or is it and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell

 

[BobRyan]

Yes Bob, I know your argument. But most of the verses say "law' not commandments

1. Turns out - commandments of God are included in God's Law as Paul points out in Romans 7.
2. Turns out - Commandments specifically mentioned in Rom 13, Matt 19, Rom 7, Jame 2, 1 Cor 7:19

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "saints KEEP the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 "'Honor your father and mother' is the first Commandment with a promise"
1 John 5:3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

As you and I have seen many dozens of times so far.

, and all of them, never, ever, say 'the ten commandments'.

1. God's Word uses that very term. Ex 34:28
2. In Eph 6:2 the ONLY unit of Law with "'Honor your father and mother' as the first Commandment with a promise" -- the TEN is the only unit of Law in scripture with that particular feature

As you and I have seen many times so far.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't read the commandments in Exodus because Jesus, expanded on that law in Exodus.

Jesus never "expanded" on scripture by telling His followers "not to read it".

As you and I have been reminded many times so far in these discussions.

Jesus quotes the Law of Moses in Matt 22 to show us how the TEN are affirmed and sustained by these two commands of Moses.

1. Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:5
2. Love your neighbor as yourself - Lev 19:18

As you and I have seen many times in the past.

A bible detail so obviously sustaining and affirming "the TEN" that we see this same obvious point affirmed in non-SDA confessions.

affirmation of all TEN of the TEN Commandments is not unique.. we see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.
Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.

A glaringly obvious point you and I have seen many dozens of times so far in this discussion

 

[BobRyan]

Yet there is sin that is not visible in the Old Testament, as shown below.

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

How do you interpret that passage above?

Is this you selling all your possessions instead of reading Exodus 20 - as you have stated previously??

 

[BobRyan]

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31
In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments"

We establish the law and the prophets because they make us aware of the scale of sin.

Paul never says "rebellion against the law of God - is a funny kind of establishing the law"

Rather in Rom 8:4-11 Paul says only the lost person "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" -- by contrast to the saints in Rom 8:4-11

A bible detail you and I have seen dozens of times so far on this subject.

Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

affirmation of all TEN of the TEN Commandments is not unique.. we see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.
Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.

 

[klutedavid]

Jesus never "expanded" on scripture by telling His followers "not to read it".

As you and I have been reminded many times so far in these discussions.

Jesus quotes the Law of Moses in Matt 22 to show us how the TEN are affirmed and sustained by these two commands of Moses.

1. Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:5
2. Love your neighbor as yourself - Lev 19:18

As you and I have seen many times in the past.

A bible detail so obviously sustaining and affirming "the TEN" that we see this same obvious point affirmed in non-SDA confessions.

affirmation of all TEN of the TEN Commandments is not unique.. we see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.
Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.

A glaringly obvious point you and I have seen many dozens of times so far in this discussion

You may have missed the new commandment that is not listed in the law.

You quoted the commandment from the law, under the old covenant, shown below.

"2. Love your neighbor as yourself - Lev 19:18"

Well Bob, that old commandment above is obsolete now.

Here is the new commandment listed in the new covenant.

John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

The new commandment is an unconditional love towards others, the love of Jesus towards us.

We now love others as Christ loved us.

That is one of the very obvious differences between the old covenant and the new covenant.

You need to upgrade your version of the law from the old covenant to the new covenant.

 

[klutedavid]

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31
In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments"



Paul never says "rebellion against the law of God - is a funny kind of establishing the law"

Rather in Rom 8:4-11 Paul says only the lost person "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" -- by contrast to the saints in Rom 8:4-11

A bible detail you and I have seen dozens of times so far on this subject.

Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

affirmation of all TEN of the TEN Commandments is not unique.. we see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.
Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.

You stated, "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31

Paul said we establish the law, Paul did not say that we establish the commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

You may have missed the new commandment that is not listed in the law.

Here is how Jesus stated it -

Matt 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart ( Deut 6:5) , and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Lev 19:18) 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.” (which is all of scripture -- and both commandments from the "Law of Moses")

And no wonder Jesus quotes the Law of Moses after saying "keep the Commadments" and then being asked "which ones" in Matt 19.

And no wonder Paul ALSO quotes the LAW of Moses on that same point in Rom 13.

No wonder the NEW Covenant in scripture writes the LAW of God on "heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34

You quoted the commandment from the law, under the old covenant, shown below.

"2. Love your neighbor as yourself - Lev 19:18"

Well Bob, that old commandment above is obsolete now.

Not according to the Bible.. No NT writer declares Christ's teaching to be "obsoleted".

Rather we are told to "walk as He walked".

1 John 2:
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked.

No Wonder Paul quotes the Law of Moses in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:2

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the new commandment listed in the new covenant.
.

Hint: start by actually quoting the New Covenant from scripture in BOTH OT and NT

Jer 31:31-34

Heb 8:6-12


Jer 31 says it is the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers (exegesis matters)

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

And here we have Paul quoting the New Covenant in the New Testament - showing us that it is unchanged -- verbatim

Heb 8:8
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For they will all know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember.”

As we can all see - it is unchanged in NT from its OT form

As we can all see in Heb 8 - Paul also tells us it is CHRIST speaking His Commandments at Sinai

 

[Icyspark]

Which commandments can you identify in Matthew 19?

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

There seems to be many more commandments. The young man obeyed the ten commandments but failed the test. The young man failed the wealth test.You missed this one.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

HE WHO LOVES HIS NEIGHBOR HAS FULFILLED THE LAWYou chose an interpretation of the Bible.

Hi klutedavid,

Based on the isolated reading of verse 8--which seems to be what many individuals seem to propose--who gets to decide what love is and how it is manifested?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[ISteveB]

Which is not a funny-sort-of-way to say "it is ok to take God's name in vain ... as long as you are a Christian" -- as I am sure we both agree.



Now we are getting somewhere.

in Is 66:23 we see that the context is the "New Earth" and there we find that for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

No wonder Paul is preaching the Gospel "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 to both gentiles and Jews.

====================

BTW this affirmation of all TEN of the TEN Commandments is not unique.. we see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well. Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me where it's written that followers of Jesus are to worship YHVH on the sabbath, and keep the sabbath.

As I stated before, according to Romans 14,

Rom 14:5 WEB One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.

To me, every day is alike.

My wife and I were just talking about Christmas and decorations.

She asked me don't we celebrate the arrival of God's Son every day of the year?

Just like we live in the power of the resurrection of Jesus each and every single day of the balance of our lives from the instant we start following Jesus until we either experience the death of our body, or he returns to take up his bride, in the harpadzo.

I further see in Colossians 2:16-23

Col 2:16-23 WEB 16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s. 18 Let no one rob you of your prize by self-abasement and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and ligaments, grows with God’s growth. 20 If you died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 “Don’t handle, nor taste, nor touch” 22 (all of which perish with use), according to the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed appear like wisdom in self-imposed worship, humility, and severity to the body; but aren’t of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

So, as is written, I see nothing that actually makes the keeping of the sabbath, something that makes me more spiritual.

I see in Colossians 3:1-4, we're risen with Christ. We've died, and our lives are hid with God, in Christ. And when Jesus, who IS our life appears, we will appear with him in glory.

We further read in Romans 7 that we are dead to the law.

Rom 7:4 WEB Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might produce fruit to God.

 

[klutedavid]

Hi klutedavid,

Based on the isolated reading of verse 8--which seems to be what many individuals seem to propose--who gets to decide what love is and how it is manifested?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The apostle Paul tells us what love is and how to apply it.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous; love does not brag, it is not arrogant. It does not act disgracefully, it does not seek its own benefit; it is not provoked, does not keep an account of a wrong suffered, it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; it keeps every confidence, it believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is poured into our hearts which enables us to love others.

 

[klutedavid]

Hint: start by actually quoting the New Covenant from scripture in BOTH OT and NT

Jer 31:31-34

Heb 8:6-12


Jer 31 says it is the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers (exegesis matters)

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

And here we have Paul quoting the New Covenant in the New Testament - showing us that it is unchanged -- verbatim

Heb 8:8
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For they will all know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember.”

As we can all see - it is unchanged in NT from its OT form

As we can all see in Heb 8 - Paul also tells us it is CHRIST speaking His Commandments at Sinai

The New Testament is the promises in the Old Testament fulfilled.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets.

Jesus did not fulfill part of the law, Jesus fulfilled the entire narration of the law. But especially the ten commandments. Jesus spoke the truth and never lied. Jesus owned the entire universe and never coveted. Jesus never took His Father's name in vain, Jesus glorified and loved His Father deeply. Jesus granted eternal life and never murdered anyone. E.t.c.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The apostle Paul tells us what love is and how to apply it.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous; love does not brag, it is not arrogant. It does not act disgracefully, it does not seek its own benefit; it is not provoked, does not keep an account of a wrong suffered, it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; it keeps every confidence, it believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is poured into our hearts which enables us to love others.

God tells us exactly how to apply this love:

IF you love Me, keep MY commandments John 14:15.

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His loveJohn 15:10

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

And right in the middle of the commandments God wrote:

but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6

God tests everyone, it’s one thing to say you love God, but its another to prove it. That’s why we are taught to be doers of the Word and not just hearers.

God bless!