Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Icyspark]

The followers of Jesus are given a sabbath rest in Christ, here and now.

Jesus himself IS our Sabbath rest.

Colossians 2:6-3:5

Colossians 2:16-17 deal specifically with the sabbath of the law. [The fourth commandment doesn't point forward to a future fulfillment. It's a memorial of something that happened in the past.]

Hi ISteveB,

Let's explore the "Jesus himself IS our Sabbath rest" a bit and discover whether you're willing to be consistent in your application of this belief.

The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."​

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

Well, if that's what you want.

Hebrews 3 and 4 as well as Romans 14 [This chapter says nothing about the Sabbath. In fact, the entire book of Romans never mentions the Sabbath] say differently.

Rom 14:4-9 WEB 4 Who are you who judge another’s servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand. 5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn’t eat, to the Lord he doesn’t eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Heb 3:1-19 WEB 1 Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus, 2 who was faithful to him who appointed him, as also Moses was in all his house. 3 For he has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, because he who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone; but he who built all things is God. 5 Moses indeed was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were afterward to be spoken, 6 but Christ is faithful as a Son over his house. We are his house, if we hold fast our confidence and the glorying of our hope firm to the end. 7 Therefore, even as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you will hear his voice, 8 don’t harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, in the day of the trial in the wilderness, 9 where your fathers tested me and tried me, and saw my deeds for forty years. 10 Therefore I was displeased with that generation, and said, ‘They always err in their heart, but they didn’t know my ways.’ 11 As I swore in my wrath, ‘They will not enter into my rest.’” 12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” 16 For who, when they heard, rebelled? Wasn’t it all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 With whom was he displeased forty years? Wasn’t it with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 To whom did he swear that they wouldn’t enter into his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 We see that they weren’t able to enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:1-16 WEB 1 Let’s fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn’t profit them, because it wasn’t mixed with faith by those who heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, they will not enter into my rest;” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has said this somewhere about the seventh day, “God rested on the seventh day from all his works;” 5 and in this place again, “They will not enter into my rest.” 6 Seeing therefore it remains that some should enter into it, and they to whom the good news was preached before failed to enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again defines a certain day, today, saying through David so long a time afterward (just as has been said), “Today if you will hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let’s therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 There is no creature that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him to whom we must give an account. 14 Having then a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let’s hold tightly to our confession. 15 For we don’t have a high priest who can’t be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. 16 Let’s therefore draw near with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace for help in time of need.

You can indeed continue to choose only one day to rest.

Jesus followers are enjoined to enter God's rest, every day.

Hi ISteveB,

I find it so strange when people appeal to Hebrews 4 as some sort of validation for ridding themselves of Sabbath observance. Have you ever read the chapter and considered that it was actually affirming the seventh day Sabbath? I'll quote the relevant portion below and highlight the words which spell this out:

Hebrews 4:1-11
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”​

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spokenlater about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.​

So, what is the context here? We're talking about God resting from His works after "the creation of the world." Then the author goes on to double down on the obvious and point out that this rest took place "On the seventh day. . ." Not once does he affirm the seventh day, but twice. Then, he goes on to indicate that Christians who want to enter "God's rest also rest from their works, just as God did from His." There is only one place where God rested from His works and that is where He instituted the Sabbath (Genesis 2:1-3). With that in mind, we are to rest from our works in the same way God rested from His. This is not speaking of a nebulous rest. Or a spiritual rest. It is a physical rest. Just as God physically stopped His work of creation.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[klutedavid]

Hi ISteveB,

Let's explore the "Jesus himself IS our Sabbath rest" a bit and discover whether you're willing to be consistent in your application of this belief.

The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."​

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Gentiles were never under the law, so there is not a Sabbath rest for a Gentile. The law was never given to the Gentile nations.

Jesus was only sent to the Jews. It would be many years before a Gentile heard the gospel.

Gentiles were grafted into the tree in the middle of the garden of Eden, the tree of life eternal.

That tree was Christ.

The law and the Old Testament, the law and the former covenant, just shadows, types. The fulfillment and the glory are found in Jesus Christ alone.

The law only grants a knowledge of sin and nothing more. The promises contained in the law were useless and weak.

Hebrews 7:18
For, on the one hand, there is the nullification of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness.

 

[ISteveB]

Hi ISteveB,

Let's explore the "Jesus himself IS our Sabbath rest" a bit and discover whether you're willing to be consistent in your application of this belief.

The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."​

T--X F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F--X Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F--X Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

Finding spiritual rest in Christ brings bodily rest too. Proverbs 3:1-8

Pro 3:1-8 WEB 1 My son, don’t forget my teaching; but let your heart keep my commandments: 2 for they will add to you length of days, years of life, and peace. 3 Don’t let kindness and truth forsake you. Bind them around your neck. Write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 So you will find favor, and good understanding in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don’t lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Don’t be wise in your own eyes. Fear Yahweh, and depart from evil. 8 It will be health to your body, and nourishment to your bones.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Thankfully, according to Titus 2:11-14, Grace is in the business of teaching, saving, reminding, and purifying us. And is something we should assiduously fight for.

Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Keep following Jesus.

 

[ISteveB]

Hi ISteveB,

I find it so strange when people appeal to Hebrews 4 as some sort of validation for ridding themselves of Sabbath observance. Have you ever read the chapter and considered that it was actually affirming the seventh day Sabbath?

I've been reading the bible since 1977. How long have you been reading it?
I've read the bible through, several times, and am presently reading Numbers.

I'll quote the relevant portion below and highlight the words which spell this out:

Hebrews 4:1-11
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”​

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spokenlater about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.​

So, what is the context here? We're talking about God resting from His works after "the creation of the world." Then the author goes on to double down on the obvious and point out that this rest took place "On the seventh day. . ." Not once does he affirm the seventh day, but twice. Then, he goes on to indicate that Christians who want to enter "God's rest also rest from their works, just as God did from His." There is only one place where God rested from His works and that is where He instituted the Sabbath (Genesis 2:1-3). With that in mind, we are to rest from our works in the same way God rested from His. This is not speaking of a nebulous rest. Or a spiritual rest. It is a physical rest. Just as God physically stopped His work of creation.

What do you think that rest given to God's people is?

I pray this helps.

Indeed. Seeing it continues to affirm my point.
But since you seem to think that I'm saying you shouldn't take a day to recuperate from your work week, I weekly enjoy a day off, so I can physically rest.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Please read 2 Peter 1:2-13, and Titus 2:11-15.
I'd also like to ask you to read Ezekiel 36:25-27.

Grace and peace be with you.
In Christ.

 

[Icyspark]

You quoted this line, "the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

That covenant was the old covenant, an obsolete covenant. The very words of that old covenant, the book of the law, is an obsolete book.

We are in a new covenant now, a covenant of grace, a covenant based on Christ.

The Spirit has written the law of love upon our hearts.

Hi klutedavid,

The New Covenant has a plurality of laws written on our hearts. Not just one.

Hebrews 8:10​

This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Speaking of the Ten Commandments in the present tense, Paul says they are "holy, righteous and good." I don't understand how one can be dismissive of the law when it is what defines sin. Are you a sinner? How do you know?

God bless

 

[Icyspark]

Finding spiritual rest in Christ brings bodily rest too. Proverbs 3:1-8

Pro 3:1-8 WEB 1 My son, don’t forget my teaching; but let your heart keep my commandments: 2 for they will add to you length of days, years of life, and peace. 3 Don’t let kindness and truth forsake you. Bind them around your neck. Write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 So you will find favor, and good understanding in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don’t lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Don’t be wise in your own eyes. Fear Yahweh, and depart from evil. 8 It will be health to your body, and nourishment to your bones.



Thankfully, according to Titus 2:11-14, Grace is in the business of teaching, saving, reminding, and purifying us. And is something we should assiduously fight for.

Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Keep following Jesus.

Hi ISteveB,

I'm thinking that you, just like all the other critics of Sabbath observance, did not address anything from the opening post. Would that be correct? If it is correct, why do you suppose that is a trend here? My guess is that it's hard to be dismissive of the fact that:

3. Jesus observed the Sabbath.
4. the apostles observed the Sabbath after the cross.
5. Paul observed the Sabbath.
6. Gentiles "begged" Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath.

If the Sabbath was no longer in effect where is the evidence that any of these people knew of such a thing? Jesus certainly never indicated the Sabbath was coming to an end and in order to be part of His new covenant then it would have to be added before He died. Nothing can be added to a covenant that has been duly established. As noted under point number 4 in the opening post, Jesus never informed His disciples of any change, which is why they "rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment."

1. Why people are so set in their ways to be dismissive of the day God says we should call "a delight," is beyond me.
2. Why people are so set in their ways that they insist on forgetting the day God commanded should be remembered, is beyond me.
3. Why people are so set their ways that they reject the example of those who know best is beyond me.
4. Why people feel they can ignore the law which defines sin and then think they can go on "sinning that grace may abound," is also beyond me.

• Tell me, at what point did the Sabbath go from being a delight to being a burden?
• Tell me, at what point did remembering the Sabbath go to forgetting it?
• Tell me, since I follow Jesus and His apostles and see their example of observing the Sabbath, whose example of rejecting Jesus's holy day are you following?
• Tell me, are you a sinner? If yes, on what basis do you know this?

Keep following Jesus.

That is precisely the point. Paul followed Jesus. Peter followed Jesus. John followed Jesus. Jesus observed the Sabbath. Paul observed the Sabbath. Peter observed the Sabbath. John observed the Sabbath. I observe the Sabbath. If Jesus is your Lord, shouldn't you be following Him as well?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[pasifika]

Hi ISteveB,

I'm thinking that you, just like all the other critics of Sabbath observance, did not address anything from the opening post. Would that be correct? If it is correct, why do you suppose that is a trend here? My guess is that it's hard to be dismissive of the fact that:

3. Jesus observed the Sabbath.
4. the apostles observed the Sabbath after the cross.
5. Paul observed the Sabbath.
6. Gentiles "begged" Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath.

If the Sabbath was no longer in effect where is the evidence that any of these people knew of such a thing? Jesus certainly never indicated the Sabbath was coming to an end and in order to be part of His new covenant then it would have to be added before He died. Nothing can be added to a covenant that has been duly established. As noted under point number 4 in the opening post, Jesus never informed His disciples of any change, which is why they "rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment."

1. Why people are so set in their ways to be dismissive of the day God says we should call "a delight," is beyond me.
2. Why people are so set in their ways that they insist on forgetting the day God commanded should be remembered, is beyond me.
3. Why people are so set their ways that they reject the example of those who know best is beyond me.
4. Why people feel they can ignore the law which defines sin and then think they can go on "sinning that grace may abound," is also beyond me.

• Tell me, at what point did the Sabbath go from being a delight to being a burden?
• Tell me, at what point did remembering the Sabbath go to forgetting it?
• Tell me, since I follow Jesus and His apostles and see their example of observing the Sabbath, whose example of rejecting Jesus's holy day are you following?
• Tell me, are you a sinner? If yes, on what basis do you know this?

That is precisely the point. Paul followed Jesus. Peter followed Jesus. John followed Jesus. Jesus observed the Sabbath. Paul observed the Sabbath. Peter observed the Sabbath. John observed the Sabbath. I observe the Sabbath. If Jesus is your Lord, shouldn't you be following Him as well?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hello, there is no command for Gentiles to keep the 7th day Sabbath in NT..the apostles keep the 7th day as their custom since they are Jews, but they never force the Gentiles to keep it as a command from the Lord..

As for the Sabbath rest in Hebrews 3&4 is a spiritual rest Not a physical Rest..it's easy to have a physical rest one day a week then to experience spiritual rest everyday...

 

[ISteveB]

Hi ISteveB,

I'm thinking that you, just like all the other critics of Sabbath observance, did not address anything from the opening post.

I'm thinking that you ignored my points.
I think too that you're so focused on one commandment that you have ignored the other 612 commandments.
James tells us that if you keep all, but break one, you're guilty of breaking the entire code.

We read in Leviticus 18 that if you keep the whole law, you will live because of it.

Since I broke the entire law by the time I was 10-13 years old, I no longer have a dog in this whole law issue. I.e., I have no righteousness of my own.
As such, I depend entirely on God's grace and mercy. His love for me. Thankfully, he tells us about a friend of his who believes him and he accounts his friend with righteousness.


Enter Jesus.
He has kept the whole law, and has promised that if I believe him, I will be accounted righteous with his Father.

Now, back to the life I live in following Jesus, because I've already violated the law of Moses.

I read in Matthew 22:35-40, the entire law and prophets hang on two commandments.
Love YHVH with all my heart, soul, and mind.
Also, I see it includes loving my neighbor as myself.
I then read in Galatians 5:16-25 that in walking in the Spirit I will satisfy the righteousness of YHVH.
In looking further at it, I don't see how to walk in the Spirit.
I do however see in Romans 8 how to walk in the Spirit. By focusing my thoughts on spiritual things. In fact, Paul emphasizes that the only way to keep the ordinances is by walking in the Spirit.
I then see in Romans 13:8-10 that the law is fulfilled by love.
Therefore, by living a life of love, I can satisfy the righteousness of YHVH.

I further notice in Romans 12:1-2, Colossians 3:1-4, and Philippians 4:6-9, our thought life matters to YHVH. In fact, in Philippians 4:9 we see that YHVH himself will be with us if we think on pure, lovely, right, just, true, and praiseworthy things.
I don't know about you, but I actually like that God will be with me. I am definitely on the outside of the Kingdom on any other terms.
So being invited by Jesus to become an adopted son of God is better than winning the mega lottery.

In reading the law, and writings and the prophets, I see that the things we're called to engage in, in the new testament is the same.

Would that be correct? If it is correct, why do you suppose that is a trend here? My guess is that it's hard to be dismissive of the fact that:

3. Jesus observed the Sabbath.
4. the apostles observed the Sabbath after the cross.
5. Paul observed the Sabbath.

Show us where they told gentiles to keep the law. From what I read in Acts 15, we're not enjoined to keep the law.

6. Gentiles "begged" Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath.

And? Show us where he told them they had to keep the sabbath.

If the Sabbath was no longer in effect where is the evidence that any of these people knew of such a thing? Jesus certainly never indicated the Sabbath was coming to an end and in order to be part of His new covenant then it would have to be added before He died. Nothing can be added to a covenant that has been duly established.

Show us where gentiles were enjoined to keep the law. Acts 15 looks pretty clear.

Those to whom the law was given weren't even able to keep it.

As noted under point number 4 in the opening post, Jesus never informed His disciples of any change, which is why they "rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment."

1. Why people are so set in their ways to be dismissive of the day God says we should call "a delight," is beyond me.
2. Why people are so set in their ways that they insist on forgetting the day God commanded should be remembered, is beyond me.
3. Why people are so set their ways that they reject the example of those who know best is beyond me.
4. Why people feel they can ignore the law which defines sin and then think they can go on "sinning that grace may abound," is also beyond me.

• Tell me, at what point did the Sabbath go from being a delight to being a burden?
• Tell me, at what point did remembering the Sabbath go to forgetting it?
• Tell me, since I follow Jesus and His apostles and see their example of observing the Sabbath, whose example of rejecting Jesus's holy day are you following?
• Tell me, are you a sinner? If yes, on what basis do you know this?

Already answered above.

That is precisely the point. Paul followed Jesus. Peter followed Jesus. John followed Jesus. Jesus observed the Sabbath. Paul observed the Sabbath. Peter observed the Sabbath. John observed the Sabbath. I observe the Sabbath. If Jesus is your Lord, shouldn't you be following Him as well?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

If it's precisely the point, then why would you try doing what the apostles say they couldn't even accomplish?

Read Acts 15.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yep.

Future at the time of the writing.

The followers of Jesus are given a sabbath rest in Christ, here and now.

Jesus himself IS our Sabbath rest.

Colossians 2:6-3:5

Colossians 2:16-17 deal specifically with the sabbath of the law.

There is no scripture that says Jesus is our Sabbath or a Sabbath. As shown earlier from the scriptures, the only definition of God's Sabbath of the 4th commandment is "the seventh day" of the week (Exodus 20:8-11). Your reading into the scriptures what they do not say and do not teach.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The law in it's entirety was but a mere shadow of the approaching Christ.

Not according to the scriptures. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) Jesus and the Apostles all taught obedience to Gods law (scripture support) and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant (scripture support) as a requirement for Christian living in all those who have been born of the Spirit to believe follow what God's Word says (see John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-7; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Your mixing up Gods' eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 written on stone with the finger of God *Exodus 32:16 with the Mosaic "shadow laws" written by Moses for the remission of sins pointing to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 who was the true unleavened bread and Passover lamb of God *1 Corinthians 5:7 and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and the work of Jesus as our true great high Priest that ever lives to make intercession for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22.

Colossians 2:17 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day. Things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

See the scripture support that disagrees with your interpretation of Colossians 2:16 in post # 617 linked.

Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. The law was never intended to make anyone perfect, nor righteous. All the law can do is notify you that you are a sinner. No credit points are awarded for devotion to the law. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come

Sorry dear friend that is not true at all. You may want to consider the scripture contexts here and the subject matter your disregarding in your interpretation of Hebrews 10:1 as it is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments being a shadow of anything. Hebrews 9:1-27 is talking about the laws or remission of sins and the sin offerings and comparing them to the offering Jesus made with his own blood and the ratification of the old and the new covenants by blood atonement for sin not Gods' 10 commandments.

Hebrews 10:1-22 continues from Hebrews 9:1-27. So the context and subject matter your disregarding even in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22 proves your interpretation of Hebrews 10:1 is not talking about God's 10 commandments. The context and subject matter of these scriptures is the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins in the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings to that to which they all pointed to which was Jesus as Gods' true sacrifice for sins through blood atonement and his role as our great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:1-6.(see also Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22). Your disregarding context and subject matter which is not to God's 10 commandments but to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins and the old Sanctuary that carried out these laws that was only all a copy and shadow of the new covenant and the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not mat as outlined in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7).

Let's have a detailed look at the scriptures...

HEBREWS 10:1-10
[1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR CONTINUALLY MAKE THE COMERS THEREUNTO PERFECT.

Note: the within scripture subject matter contexts continues from the laws of the animal sacrifices and sin offering of Hebrews 9:1-27 and the better offering of the blood of Christ. The within scripture subject matter and context is to the laws of animal sacrifices that are offered year by year.

[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because THAT THE WORSHIPERS ONCE PURGED SHOULD HAVE HAD NO MORE CONSCIENCE OF SINS.
[3], But IN THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Note: context and subject matter is the laws of remission of sins through blood sacrifice.

[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU WOULD NOT, BUT A BODY HAVE YOU PREPARED ME:
[6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.

Note: All these laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) were “shadow laws” pointing to Jesus and are fulfilled and continued in Christ as God’s true sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (see Hebrews 10:10).

[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, NEITHER HAD PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;

Note: The context and subject matter is not Gods’ 10 commandments but the Mosaic “shadow laws” for remission of sins in animal sacrifices and sin offerings from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (see Hebrews 10:7 and Exodus 24:7) and the introduction of Jesus to who all these laws pointed to.

[9], THEN SAID HE, SEE, I COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
[10], By the which WILL WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL.

.................

CONCLUSION: The context and subject matter of Hebrews 10:1 is to Mosiac “shadow laws” for remission of sins in the Sanctuary from the Mosiac book of the covenant (Hebrews 10:7; Exodus 24:7) not God’s 10 commandments which give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. According to James if we break anyone of God’s 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 once God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word if we choose to reject it there remains no more sacrifice for sin (forgiveness) but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come which will devour the adversaries. God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Take Care.

 

[klutedavid]

Hi klutedavid,

The New Covenant has a plurality of laws written on our hearts. Not just one.

Hebrews 8:10​

This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Speaking of the Ten Commandments in the present tense, Paul says they are "holy, righteous and good." I don't understand how one can be dismissive of the law when it is what defines sin. Are you a sinner? How do you know?

God bless

The ten commandments are in the law, but the law is way bigger than just the ten commandments.

Where in the New Testament does the phrase, 'the ten commandments', occur?

Your church theology (SDA) is based on the ten commandments. So how do know that the ten commandments have any significance?

The verse (Hebrews 8:10) you quoted above, declares 'I will put My Laws in their minds...'

Once again, how do you know that, 'My Laws', means the ten commandments?

I am not asking for inference or even a good guess. I want to know, how you know, that 'My Laws' are the ten commandments?

 

[splish- splash]

Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing and following God's Word *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23; James 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 if we continue in known unrepentant sin (breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing and following God's Word) after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we choose to reject it, there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come.

Let's talk 2 Corinthians 3? What is the ministry that brings death? I have no idea why your posting Ephesians 2. Most of your post here are your comments unsupported by the scriptures. Did you want to prayerfully discuss the scriptures in detail with me?

Take Care.

But I thought 2 Corinthians 3 :7 is clear enough. The ministry that brings death, is the law that we are so fixated on... The same law kills instead of saving incase you didnt know, as we cannot try to make our selves righteous & think we will enter heaven... As for ephisians 2, it's relevant to what we are discussing, so it's ok being there...

Now concernig the Israelites, who were given the law by Moses, of all of them, how many even made it to heaven? It's actually very disturbing if you look at it closely.. Its like trying to ride a broken bicycle, hoping that it will eventually move and get you somewhere.

... I do prayerfully study God's word ... No one will ever understand the word of God overnight, but I still urge you, let's keep searching God's word... As long as we don't try to fit in heretic teachings & writings into God's word, we will get there eventually. We're searching for Sound doctrine... God bless

 

[Icyspark]

Ok.
I'm thinking that I'm going to focus on learning to enjoy the sabbath rest of YHVH [The "sabbath rest of YHVH" is specifically and only tied to the seventh day not every day. That'd be silly. Work still needs to happen the rest of the week.], 7 days a week.

Romans 14
Hebrews 3-4

Hi ISteveB,

This logic is illogical. If you're an American you don't get to decide to observe Independence day on the 3rd of July. Neither do you get to claim that December 25th is Independence day. Just like it's not left to you to make such a determination so too it is not left to you to choose what day is set aside as holy and blessed. A day of rest.

Israel had the miracle of manna for 40 years in the desert. With each seventh day the miracle of the manna came to a 24 hour end. So for 40 years God's specified day of rest was emphasized every seventh day. The Israelite's didn't get to determine for themselves what day they'd choose as a rest day. God chose and it's the same today.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[splish- splash]

Hi splash- splash,

According to Hebrews in the New Covenant the Lord writes His laws in the hearts and on the minds of believers. What plurality of laws would you like to suggest that God is writing on the hearts of believers?

Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”​

Have you ever heard the supposed number of Old Testament laws? Someone took the time to count them all and came up with 613. But did you know that someone also took the time to count the commands in the New Testament? That number is even higher--1050! I'm just wondering what you do with all of these commands?

As for me, I don't find that the reason God had to have a new covenant had to do with what the people covenanted/agreed to do (i.e. obey God's laws). God is the Author of those laws and just as He is perfect, so too are all of His laws. There would obviously be no reason to find fault with what a perfect God commanded.

So what reason does the Bible give for why there was a need for a new covenant? Hebrews 8:8 says, "God found fault with the people ..." Hmm. But why did He find "fault with the people"? God answers: "because they did not remain faithful to my covenant."

A covenant simply means an agreement between two parties. In the case of the old agreement it was between God and the people of Israel. What they both agreed to was that Israel should keep all of God's commandments. Since there was nothing wrong with the commandments (as in "God found fault with the people"), then what reason would you like to suggest that He jettison the law that was given to identify sin? If there is no law, then there is no sin. If there's no sin, then there are no sinners. If there are no sinners, then there is no need for a Savior. If there's no need for a Savior, then there's no need for Jesus. Is that really what you're arguing for?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hope that answers your questions....

Roman's 2:12
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Roman's 2:14
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

God bless..

 

[ISteveB]

There is no scripture that says Jesus is our Sabbath or a Sabbath. As shown earlier from the scriptures, the only definition of God's Sabbath of the 4th commandment is "the seventh day" of the week (Exodus 20:8-11). Your reading into the scriptures what they do not say and do not teach.

Take Care.

Sounds to me like you're not reading enough.

But, since you have not paid attention to what I've stated, I'll continue to enjoy following Jesus and learning to understand the rest we're given in Christ.
You continue arguing with total strangers that you alone know God's Word and others who are following Jesus are wrong.

See you in eternity.

Ciao.

 

[ISteveB]

Hi ISteveB,

This logic is illogical. If you're an American you don't get to decide to observe Independence day on the 3rd of July. Neither do you get to claim that December 25th is Independence day. Just like it's not left to you to make such a determination so too it is not left to you to choose what day is set aside as holy and blessed. A day of rest.

Israel had the miracle of manna for 40 years in the desert. With each seventh day the miracle of the manna came to a 24 hour end. So for 40 years God's specified day of rest was emphasized every seventh day. The Israelite's didn't get to determine for themselves what day they'd choose as a rest day. God chose and it's the same today.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Well....
Perhaps you should take a break from being wound so tightly about the sabbath and start learning the rest of the bible.

Isaiah 55 talks about how God's ways, and his thoughts are higher than our ways/thoughts.

We further read in Isaiah 40 that we lack the understanding and wisdom to be God's counselor.

I've been reading the bible for the past 44 years now.
I've made it a regular habit to do so daily.

Also, please read psalm 111:10, 147:11, 25:14, and of course their surrounding passages.
Context matters where I come from.
As it should for all Jesus followers.

 

[BobRyan]

Gentiles were never under the law .

Not according to Paul.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

... 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

And even in the in the NT - "Sin" by definition is "transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

 

[BobRyan]

The law in it's entirety was but a mere shadow of the approaching Christ.

Not true.

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31


In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments"
In Rom 13 - Paul says to "keep those same commandments"

I choose the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 55 talks about how God's ways, and his thoughts are higher than our ways/thoughts.

Which is not a funny-sort-of-way to say "it is ok to take God's name in vain ... as long as you are a Christian" -- as I am sure we both agree.

Context matters where I come from.
As it should for all Jesus followers.

Now we are getting somewhere.

in Is 66:23 we see that the context is the "New Earth" and there we find that for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

No wonder Paul is preaching the Gospel "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 to both gentiles and Jews.

====================

BTW this affirmation of all TEN of the TEN Commandments is not unique.. we see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well. Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.