The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

[LoveGodsWord]

You said that if this were true, it "would be in contradiction of what Jesus says in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for mankind." No matter how many times I say that "man" doesn't prove "all mankind," you seem to keep repeating this. However, the statement wouldn't contradict what Jesus says unless you assume that ánthrōpos in Mark 2:27 means "all mankind." However, even you agree it sometimes means "Jews" as in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, and Hebrews 7:28.

Perhaps you had a misunderstanding here. I said if your interpretation was true that would be in contradiction of what Jesus says in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for mankind. The evidence here is that there was no Jew, no Israel, no sin, no law and no plan of salvation given when God made the Sabbath for all mankind at creation *Genesis 2:1-3. Keep in mind here there was also no nations to keep the Sabbath here only Adam and Eve the very first of all mankind. According to the scripture as shown earlier, Gods’ Word of course is only for Gods’ people. God’s people are represented by Israel in the flesh born of the seed of Abraham in the Old Testament scriptures and Gods’ Israel in the new covenant are represented as all those who have now been born again in the Spirit to believe and follow Gods’ Word says Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29. So understanding who Gods Israel is here shows is in harmony with the scriptures showing that Gods Israel are only all those who believe and follow what Gods’ Word says. This is what the scriptures teach. Remember the rule here is context determines word meaning and scripture interpretation not the other way around. I think we discussed this already.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Both views can't be shown to be correct by going to the "new covenant," as the Sabbath was given before the new covenant. Again, the wall of separation hadn't been broken yet. The branches weren't broken off the tree to graft in Gentiles until the time of Christ. In fact, even the Ten Commandments make clear that it's Israel of the flesh in saying that the Sabbath is a memorial of when Israel was brought out of Egypt (Deuteronomy 5:15). It wasn't Israel of the spirit that was led out of Egypt, and it certainly wasn't all of mankind that was, so it's Israel of the flesh in consideration.

Well perhaps for you both views cannot be correct. This is because of who you think God’s Israel is. For me both view are correct because I am considering the scriptures contexts and subject matter and application and meaning of the name “Israel” that is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what Gods’ Word says. It is true all of God’s laws of the old covenant were given before the new covenant. On this we are in agreement and we are in agreement that Gods’ Israel in the new covenant is no longer restricted to those only born of the seed of Abraham but is now given to anyone who believes and follows Gods’ Word who are born of the Spirit into Gods’ new covenant promise by faith (*Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; Hebrews 8:10-12).

As already shown in the scriptures, Deuteronomy 5:15 does not say that that the Sabbath is a memorial of Egypt it says [15], And remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out there through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

Note: The scripture is not stating that the Sabbath is a memorial of Egyptian slavery. The scripture is stating that God’s people were to remember that they were slaves in Egypt, God delivered them and God commanded them to keep the Sabbath day. The Sabbath memorial however is written in Gods 4th commandment that tells us exactly what the Sabbath commandment is a memorial of in Exodus 20:8-11 where it says “Remember the sabbath day (memorial of the Sabbath) to keep it holy. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: (Why? Here is what the Sabbath is a memorial in Exodus 20:11) [11], For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.” According to the scriptures God’ 4th commandment is a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth as shown in v11 not a memorial that God’s people left Egypt. So as shown from the scriptures above the scriptures are not teaching what you’re teaching here.

Again, as I wrote already, the contradiction would be if we make "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 mean "all mankind," since that would actually make Jesus contradict Exodus 31:17, Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12, and even the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:15, passages which specify the Sabbath as a covenant sign between God and Israel of the flesh that was brought out of Egypt. The Sabbath couldn't be a covenant sign between God and Israel if it were already for everyone else anyway, right? No, it means the same thing it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

As posted already the scripture contexts, subject matter and application determines interpretation not word meanings outside of context and subject matter. According to the scriptures and not reading into the scriptures, Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, was made for mandkind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. Because there was no sin there was no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). As posted earlier, the scriptures do not say anywhere that the Sabbath was made for Jews or physical Israel in Mark 2:27.

If Jesus was stating that the Sabbath was made for the Jews he would have used the Greek word Ἰουδαῖος (Ioudaîos; G2453) or for Israel he would have said Ἰσραήλ (Israḗl | G2474). Fact is though he specifically used the Greek word for humal beings or mankind (ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444). So this right from the start has you reading into the scripture of Mark 2:27 what the scriptures are not saying or teaching. The evidence of this is further provided in Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 where God created the Sabbath for mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings. As Jesus says on the “seventh day” of the creation week. According to the scriptures when God created the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob, no Moses, no Jew, no Israel, no law, no sin and no plan of salvation given. There was only Adam and Eve representing the first of all mankind made in the image of God created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31) that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think I already replied to most of this but will respond to one specific point: Of course, the "plan of salvation" part appears to be false, as already discussed.

As already responded, I think you had a misunderstanding of what was said earlier which was false here in regards to God’s plan of salvation. I have never once said to you that God’s plan of salvation from sin did not exist before mankind had sinned so your making arguments here that no one is arguing about therefore you have no argument because we are both in agreement. What I have said to you though many times now and what I have only ever said is that God never gave His plan of salvation to mankind until after mankind had sinned. Even in the post you were quoting from it was stated there that God did not outline his plan of salvation for all of mankind until after the fall in Genesis 3:14-15. If there was no law and no sin when the Sabbath was made for mankind and Gods’ plan of salvation was not given to mankind until after mankind had sinned then there was never any “shadow laws” before the fall of mankind when the Sabbath was made so it is impossible for the Sabbath to be a shadow of things to come because it points backward to the finished work of creation. Therefore the Sabbath cannot be a “shadow law” of anything because there was no sin and no law when God made the Sabbath for all mankind according to the scriptures. The “shadow laws” did not come until after the fall of mankind not before. The Sabbath was made before mankind sinned.

But this whole argument is a long way of saying "Since the Sabbath was made while Adam and Eve were alive, it was given then, too, and thus, the 'man' of Mark 2:27 must mean 'all mankind.'" (This is a paraphrase, but you get the idea. ) We've already established that it's false to claim that when something was "made" is when it's "given."

Actually, no we have established no such things. What we have established is that the scripture context and application to subject matter determine both word meanings and interpretation of scripture as God guides us with His Spirit. As shown through the scriptures many times now the Sabbath was made for mankind at the “seventh day” of the creation week where God set aside “the seventh day” and blessed the “seventh day” and made the “seventh day” of the creation week a “holy day” of rest for all mankind. Now all of this is God’s Word so for me, it is presumption to assume that God made the Sabbath for man who was created on the “sixth day” of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31, then God making the Sabbath for man on the “seventh day” of the creation week where he set the “seventh day”of the week aside from every other days of the week and blessed it and made it a holy day for mankind only not to give it to him? This claim simply goes against the very words of Jesus in Mark 2:27 in my view and is not biblical.

According to the scriptures it is Jesus that has said that he made the Sabbath for all mankind. So, the subject matter and application and word meanings here in Mark 2:27 is to [1]. the Sabbath, [2]. made (creation) and [3]. for mankind. As shown through the scriptures many times now the Sabbath was made for mankind at the “seventh day” of the creation week where God set aside “the seventh day” and blessed the “seventh day” and made the “seventh day” of the creation week a “holy day” of rest for all mankind. Now all of this is God’s Word so for me, it is presumption to assume that God made the Sabbath for man who was created on the “sixth day” of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31, then God making the Sabbath for man on the “seventh day” of the creation week where he set the “seventh day”of the week aside from every other days of the week and blessed it and made it a holy day for mankind only not to give it to him? Can you see the logic in the argument you’re trying to make here dear friend? To me your argument goes directly against the very words of Jesus.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So while Genesis may show when the Sabbath was "made" (assuming God's seventh-day rest is called a "Sabbath"), it doesn't show when it was "given." In Ezekiel 20:12, we're told when the Sabbath was given (after Egypt), to whom it was given (Israel of the flesh, led out of Egypt, c.f. Deuteronomy 5:15), and why it was given⁠—to be a "sign" showing that God "sanctifies them" (i.e., sets them apart). This passage makes clear that the Sabbath was given during Israel, for Israel, and only for Israel (i.e., to set them apart). And again, how can you "give" something to someone if they already have it? This shows Israel didn't have the Sabbath before Moses.

As shown through the scriptures earlier, The “Sabbath” is a noun that describes the “seventh day” of the week. The “Sabbath” is a noun that describes the “seventh day” of the week. There was no Sabbath word to describe it before the Sabbath was created in Genesis 2:1-3. The root word of “Sabbath” is שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) which is translated as “rested or rest” in English from Genesis 2:2-3 is a verb and root word of the noun “Sabbath” and is descriptive or how the Sabbath (noun) is kept by resting. The Hebrew word שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) literally means to keep the Sabbath by resting. It is how the Sabbath is kept and is a verb. The word translated as Sabbath is שַׁבָּת (shabbâth | H7676) which comes from שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) is the noun of what is being kept by resting and simply is a description or name of what is being kept through resting every “seventh day” of the week on a continuous weekly cycle that God linked it to.

As posted earlier I disagree with your claims here. According to the scriptures, the scripture context and application to subject matter determine both word meanings and interpretation of scripture as God guides us with His Spirit. According to the scriptures it is Jesus that has said that he made the Sabbath for all mankind. So, the subject matter and application and word meanings here in Mark 2:27 is to [1]. the Sabbath, [2]. made (creation) and [3]. for mankind. As shown through the scriptures many times now the Sabbath was made for mankind at the “seventh day” of the creation week where God set aside “the seventh day” and blessed the “seventh day” and made the “seventh day” of the creation week a “holy day” of rest for all mankind. Now all of this is God’s Word so for me, it is presumption to assume that God made the Sabbath for man who was created on the “sixth day” of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31, then God making the Sabbath for man on the “seventh day” of the creation week where he set the “seventh day”of the week aside from every other days of the week and blessed it and made it a holy day for mankind only not to give it to him? This claim simply goes against the very words of Jesus in Mark 2:27 in my view and is not biblical.

As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures already, Deuteronomy 5:15 does not say that that the Sabbath is a memorial of Egypt it says [15], And remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out there through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. Note: The scripture is not stating that the Sabbath is a memorial of Egyptian slavery. The scripture is stating that God’s people were to remember that they were slaves in Egypt, God delivered them and God commanded them to keep the Sabbath day. The Sabbath memorial however as written in Gods 4th commandment tells us exactly what the Sabbath commandment is a memorial of in Exodus 20:8-11 where it says “Remember the sabbath day (memorial of the Sabbath) to keep it holy. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: (Why? Here is what the Sabbath is a memorial in Exodus 20:11) [11], For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.” According to the scriptures God’ 4th commandment is a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth as shown in v11 not a memorial that God’s people left Egypt. So as shown from the scriptures above the scriptures are not teaching what you’re teaching here as your disregarding scripture contexts and subject matter.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

People may have obeyed God in Genesis, but the Sabbath is never listed as one of the commandments they had to obey in Genesis. No, it wasn't given until Ezekiel 20:12. And again, how can you "give" something to someone if they already have it? This shows Israel didn't have the Sabbath before Moses, right? Also, if you believe the Ten Commandments weren't for Israel of the flesh but for all mankind, even those in Genesis, do you believe that people in Genesis obeyed Deuteronomy 5:25, remembering being brought out of Egypt as they kept the Sabbath? Certainly not!

According to the scripture Gods people had Gods' laws before they were given at Mt Sinai as shown already in Genesis 26:5. They also had a knowledge of what sin was as they were offering sin offering and animal sacrifices since the days of Cain and Able and Abraham. So to say that Gods' people did not have the ten commandments or God's law before Mt Sinai is not supported in the scriptures. If you look at the scripture provided in Genesis 26:5 that says, "Because that Abraham obeyed (1) my voice, and (2) kept my charge, (3) my commandments, (4) my statutes, and (5) my laws." it really leaves you with no wiggle room. This is before the written Word of God, all of God's people had the spoken Word of God passed down from generation to generation.

If you look up the Hebrew word translated "my laws" you will see it is תֹּורָה (tôwrâh | H8451). The Hebrew word meaning is God's laws of righteousness which is only ever used in application to the Gods' 10 commandments and the laws for remission of sins (animal sacrifices and sin offerings). So before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God given to those who believed and followed what Gods' Word said.

Once again As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures already, Deuteronomy 5:15 does not say that that the Sabbath is a memorial of Egypt it says [15], And remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out there through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. Note: The scripture is not stating that the Sabbath is a memorial of Egyptian slavery. The scripture is stating that God’s people were to remember that they were slaves in Egypt, God delivered them and God commanded them to keep the Sabbath day.

The Sabbath memorial however is written in Gods 4th commandment that tells us exactly what the Sabbath commandment is a memorial of in Exodus 20:8-11 where it says “Remember the sabbath day (memorial of the Sabbath) to keep it holy. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: (Why? Here is what the Sabbath is a memorial in Exodus 20:11) [11], For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.” According to the scriptures God’ 4th commandment is a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth as shown in v11 not a memorial that God’s people left Egypt. So as shown from the scriptures above the scriptures are not teaching what you’re teaching here as your disregarding scripture contexts and subject matter.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It wasn't Israel of the spirit that was led out of Egypt, and it certainly wasn't all of mankind that was, so it's Israel of the flesh in consideration. So it was during the time of Moses that the Sabbath was made known (Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14), and it was made known specifically for Israel of the flesh (Deuteronomy 5:15). Since it's specifically for the nation of Israel, Israel of the flesh, then Mark 2:27's reference to "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) doesn't mean anything more than it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

Scripture context and subject matter is key here. As posted earlier through the scriptures, the name “Israel” is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow What God’s Word says regardless of those born of the flesh of the seed of Abaham in fulfillment of God’s promise to make his seed a great nation or those who are born of the Spirit. Israel is still only a name given by God in the old covenant for all of Gods’ people who believe and follow what God’s Word says. As posted earlier scripture context and subject matter is important here. Just as God gave His laws to His people before Israel and before Mt Sinia as shown in Genesis 26:5; Mark 2:27 and Genesis 2:1-3 God always gives his Word and laws to his people who are all those who believe and follow what Gods’ Word says (Israel) in both the old and new covenants. According to the scriptures it is Jesus that has said that he made the Sabbath for all mankind. So, the subject matter and application and word meanings here in Mark 2:27 is to [1]. the Sabbath, [2]. made (creation) and [3]. for mankind. As shown through the scriptures many times now the Sabbath was made for mankind at the “seventh day” of the creation week where God set aside “the seventh day” and blessed the “seventh day” and made the “seventh day” of the creation week a “holy day” of rest for all mankind. Now all of this is God’s Word so for me, it is presumption to assume that God made the Sabbath for man who was created on the “sixth day” of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31, then God making the Sabbath for man on the “seventh day” of the creation week where he set the “seventh day”of the week aside from every other days of the week and blessed it and made it a holy day for mankind only not to give it to him? That in my view would be presumption if God’s people already knew God’s laws as shown in Genesis 26:5.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This is where we get to the Ten Commandments. You say that the Ten Commandments give knowledge of sin but don't realize that's precisely why the Ten Commandments are a ministry of condemnation. It isn't unjust that it (as well as the rest of the law) condemns us. But Jesus took it out of the way.

Well I see this as a hand waive of the three detailed posts that were provided to you showing a detailed scripture response of not what I said but what God’s Word says. It was never me that says that Gods’ 10 commandments in the new covenant gives us the knowledge of what sin is. It is Paul in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and John in 1 John 3:4 while James in James 2:10-11 says that if we break anyone of the 10 commandments, we stand guilty before God of sin. As shown through the scriptures, Jesus did not take away the 10 commandments, he took away the condemnation death for sin that he died for as shown from the scriptures in 2 Corinthians 3. It is the ministration of condemnation and death by the letter that is done away by the ministration of the Spirit through God's mercy, grace and forgiveness through faith that works by love in fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) that is done away not God's 10 commandments. All God's 10 commandments do under the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172.

An interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction to Paul when he says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law and again in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul says we love our neighbor as our self by being obedient to those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our fellow man. Indeed the ministration of the Spirit is greater the than the ministration of the letter because while the letter brings death and condemnation while the Spirit brings life and forgiveness through Christ and writes the law on the heart through faith that works by love which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23. It is not therefore God’s 10 commandments that have become obsolete it is the ministration of condemnation and death through the ministration of God’s forgiveness and His sacrifice for our sins. God’s Word does not teach lawlessness which is what your promoting here.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You said, "According to the scriptures here in 2 Corinthians 3 is not Gods 10 commandments that have become obsolete it is the ministration of condemnation and death through the ministration of the Spirit that brings life and peace through Gods’ forgiveness and faith in Christ." But the Ten Commandments are the ministration of condemnation.

No not at all. According to the scriptures, the purpose of God’s law in the old and the new covenants is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed (Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172). They lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25). Without God’s law we have no knowledge of what sin is (moral wrong doing) and righteousness is (moral right doing). The ministration of condemnation and death is not God’s 10 commandments sin is the ministration of condemnation and death. Which is disobedience to God’s law because it is written the wages of sin is [condemnation] death *Romans 6:23.

The law is not sin or death according to Paul who says; 7, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet. *Romans 7:7 and again; [12], Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13], Was then that which is good made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Therefore according to the scriptures it is sin that brings death all the law does is give us the knowledge of what sin is. Sin therefore is the problem not the law which Paul calls Holy, just and good.

I feel I've said this more than once, but the ministration of condemnation is said to be "written and engraved on stones" (2 Corinthians 3:7, NKJV, emphasis mine), which shows that the Ten Commandments are, in fact, what 2 Corinthians 3:7 is referencing, right? "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone" (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV, emphasis mine). It seems pretty obvious what was written in stone, right? Can you give verses showing anything else to be "written and engraved on stones" if not the Ten Commandments? If you can't, then it's the Ten Commandments under consideration here in 2 Corinthians 3, and the passage later calls these Ten Commandments "what is passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:11).

Maybe this might help. Where does it say in Gods’ 10 commandments that if you break them you will die? There is nothing in Gods’ 10 commandments that says anywhere if you brake them you will die. They are simply God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and righteousness when obeyed (Psalms 119:172). Sin (breaking God’s commandments and not believing Gods’ Word) causes death not the law as shown in Romans 7:7. All the law does is give us the knowledge of what sin is when we brake God’s law. So it is correct to say that Gods’ law is the ministration of death because it is the mirror that shows us that we all have sinned (James 1:23; Romans 3:9-20).

However, what your not considering here is that sinning or breaking Gods’ law brings condemnation and death not God’s law. All God’s law does is give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break God’s law *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. So without the law we have no knowledge of what sin is and if we have no knowledge of what sin is then we do not know that we are sinners. If we do not know that we are sinners we have no need of a Savior from sin. If we have no need of a Savior from sin we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the scriptures are fulfilled “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.” – Romans 2:12 and again “And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to his disciples, Why eats your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Having an interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods’ 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says in Romans 3:31, “Do we abolish the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law. (see also Romans 13:8-10 and 1 Corinthians 7:19). It is the ministration of “condemnation and death” by the law that has been brought to an end though the ministration of the Spirit which is Jesus death for our sins that puts and end to our condemnation and death through God’s forgiveness of sins not God’s 10 commandments that lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. As shown earlier through the scriptures, 2 Corinthians 3 is contrasting the two ministrations. One of the law giving us the knowledge of what sin is leading us to condemnation and death because we have all sinned (Romans 3:9-20) and the other of the ministration of the Spirit that leads to life through through faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins. Sin is the problem here not God’s law. The purpose of God’s law in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of what sin is and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. Sorry dear friend but God’s Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) that is a false teaching according to the scriptures and is not biblical.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I don't believe the Sabbath is re-taught under the new covenant. Most of the references in the link you provided either are before Jesus died or referencing the customs of Jews.

Not really. As shown through the scriptures everyone of Gods’ 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral wrong doing) as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Pslams 119:172. All of the disciples and the Apostles continued keeping the Sabbath after the death of Jesus as shown in the scriptures (see Matthew 28:1; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14). Even when Jesus was alive he knew God’s people would be continuing to keep the Sabbath well after his death and resurrection when the disciples asked him about the time of the end (Matthew 24:3) before His second coming he says; “But pray you that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.” – Matthew 24:20-22. If you think Jesus was to abolish God’s 4th commandment you think Jesus would have told his disciples about it right? But no Jesus expected his disciples to be continuing to keep the Sabbath even before his second coming which all the disciples and Apostles continued to do until they died.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Then there's Hebrews 4, which is a spiritual Sabbath, the one not even Joshua entered but is available "today" (Hebrews 4:6-9). This proves that entering the Sabbath rest which remains doesn't refer to keeping the weekly Sabbath; otherwise, as a God-fearing Jew, Joshua would have entered it every time he observed the Sabbath. Rather, the Sabbath is heavenly rest brought through Christ, something we must be "diligent" to enter (Hebrews 4:9-11). So there is a Sabbath rest that remains for us today, but it isn't the weekly Sabbath.

This is one I was going to deal with in detail but decided to stop posting earlier so happy to discuss this one with a detail look at Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4. There is no such thing as a “
spiritual Sabbath” but lets show why Hebrews 4 is defineately talking about Gods’ 4th commandment “seventh day” Sabbath of creation and is a warning to us all that if we harden our hearts in sin and unbelief we will never enter into God’s rest/His rest/My rest of Hebrews 4 that all those who believe and follow God’s Word enter into by faith. Let’s start with the context of Hebrews 4 in Hebrews 3. This will take a few posts.

GOD'S WARNINGS AGAINST SIN AND UNBELIEF HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4

Let's look at the scriptures in detail...

Hebrews 3:8-19
8, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION, IN THE DAY OF TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS:
9, When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10, Why I WAS GRIEVED WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, THEY DO ALWAYS ERR IN THEIR HEART; AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.
11, SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER INTO MY REST.
12, TAKE HEED, BROTHERS, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; LEST ANY OF YOU BE HARDENED THROUGH THE DECEITFULNESS OF SIN.
14, For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST TO THE END;
15, While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the provocation.
16, For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17, BUT WITH WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, WHOSE CARCASSES FELL IN THE WILDERNESS?
18, And to whom swore he THAT THEY SHOULD NOT ENTER INTO HIS REST, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
19, So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

KEY POINTS TO NOTE...

• Hebrews 3:8 A warning not to harden our hearts to God's Word
• Hebrews 3:9-10 Those in the wilderness tempted God 40 years and did not obey him or his ways
• Hebrews 3:11 God swore they would not enter into "His Rest" (Genesis 2:1-3; see Ezekiel 20:10-13)
• Hebrews 3:12 Another warning not to harden our hearts in unbelief departing from God
• Hebrews 3:13 Encourage one and other lest we harden our hearts in sin (breaking Gods' law 1 John 3:4)
• Hebrews 3:14 We are only partakers of Christ "IF" we hold the the faith steadfast to the end
• Hebrews 3:15-17 More warnings not to harden our hearts as those who sinned died in the wilderness
• Hebrews 3:18-19 God did not let them enter into "His rest" because they were in unbelie

Note: Hebrews 3 and it's link to Ezekiel 20:10-13 how God's people were breaking "His Sabbath" and God poured out his judgements on them...

Ezekiel 20:10-13 [10], Why I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt and BROUGHT THEM INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11], and I GAVE THEM MY STATUTES, AND SHOWED THEM MY JUDGMENTS, WHICH IF A MAN DO, HE SHALL LIVE IN THEM. [12], MOREOVER ALSO I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THEM THAT THEY MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM. [13], BUT THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL REBELLED AGAINST ME IN THE WILDERNESS: THEY WALKED NOT IN MY STATUTES AND DESPISED MY JUDGMENTS WHICH IF A MAN DO THEY SHALL LIVE IN THEM AND MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: THEN I SAID I WOULD POUR OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

Note: Hebrews 3 and it's links to Psalms 95:2-11 and Ezekiel 20:10-13 which is also over worshiping God as the God of creation and the Sabbath commandment and not entering God's rest (the seventh day created from the foundation of the world)...

Psalms 95:2-11
[2], Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise to him with psalms.
[3], For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
[4], In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.
[5], The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.
[6], O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
[7], For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if you will hear his voice,
[8], Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
[10], Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
[11], To whom I swore in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Note the link back to what Hebrews 3 is quoting....

• Psalms 95:2-7 is worshiping the only true creator God of heaven and earth
• Psalms 95:8 "Harden not your hearts as in the provocation in the wilderness (see Hebrews 3:8)
• Psalms 95:9 "When your fathers tempted me 40 years" (see Hebrews 3:9)
• Psalms 95:10 40 years Gods' people did not know God's ways (Hebrews 3:10)
• Psalms 95:11 Because God's people did not know God's ways they did not enter His rest (Hebrews 3:11)

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Summary: Hebrews 3 is has links to Ezekiel 20:10-12 and is directly quoting from Psalms 95 which is about worshiping the only true God and creator of heaven and earth. God's people did not know God's ways and broke His Sabbaths and God did not give them His rest. They could not enter into God's rest because of unbelief and sin and God poured out His judgements on them because they broke his Sabbaths and they died in the wilderness because of their unbelief and sins. Let's define what Gods' rest/My rest/His rest is from the scriptures in the next post

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

WHAT IS GOD'S REST OF HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT.
[2], FOR TO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT.
[3], For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

• Hebrews 4:1 More warnings to fear if we do not enter into "His rest" if we fall short of it.
• Hebrews 4:2 Because unto us was the gospel preached as well us unto them but they did not believe
• Hebrews 4:3 We who believe (present tense) enter into God's rest from the foundation of the world
• Hebrews 4:4 Reference of Hebrews 4:3 is to the Gods' Sabbath rest of the "seventh day"
• Hebrews 4:4-5 God's rest is the seventh day Sabbath of creation that we enter into by faith
• Genesis 2:1-3 Links to Hebrews 4:3-4 defining God's rest as "the seventh day"

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

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Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
Hebrews 4:9 It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

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For your interest, the Greek word used here for Sabbath is Sabbatismos and means a Sabbath keeping or keeping of the Sabbath or how the Sabbath is kept by resting.

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath keeping) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.†

LIDDEL/SCOTT/JONES GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON - G4520
σαββατισμός Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Heb 4:9, cf. Plu. 2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley).

STRONGS Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. THAYER - G4520
G4520 — σαββατισμός σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);

W. E. VINE, GREEK DICTIONARY
Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. (Note the rest of Vines comments is not the Greek it is his opinion)

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

…………..

Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11 is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day"). There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14.

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SUMMARY: God's rest is the "seventh day Sabbath" of creation. Our rest is that of believing and following Gods' Word. No one enters into God's rest (defined in Hebrews as the "seventh day Sabbath") unless they believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel rest). Of course God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) are a part of God's Word (the gospel) that God's people who enter into Gods rest believe and follow in Gods' Word just like Jesus did and the Apostles and prophets in Gods' Word. Everything provided here are not my words but have been taken directly from the scriptures which are God's Words not mine (exegesis). The warnings here are very clear. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word in order to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments - James 2:10-11) just like those in the wilderness do not enter into Gods' rest (seventh day Sabbath) and will be in danger of the judgement to come (Hebrews 10:26-31)

more to come..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You said, "According to the chapter context of Romans 7 the law being discussed in Romans 7:4-6 is not God’s 10 commandments but the example of 'marriage' between the flesh and the Spirit (the old man of sin and the new man that has died with Christ (see the contexts of Romans 6:1-23) as shown in Romans 7:1-3. Being dead to the law in Romans 7:4 is not saying we disregard God's law (10 commandments) or any one of God's commandments for that matter as the purpose of Gods law in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25."

The context here is that which is already provided in Romans 6:1-23. I posted that Romans 7 is not saying we are dead to God’ law like you are teaching here. We are to be dead to the sins that held us *Romans 7:5-6. According Romans 7 the law being discussed in Romans 7:4-6 is not God’s 10 commandments but the example of the “marriage” law between the flesh and the Spirit (the old man of sin and the new man that has died with Christ (see the contexts of Romans 6:1-23) as shown in Romans 7:1-3. Being dead to the law in Romans 7:4 is not saying we disregard God's law (10 commandments) or any one of God's commandments for that matter as the purpose of Gods law in the new covenant is to simply give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. That is why Paul says the law (10 commandments) as stated a little further after Paul explains the purpose of God’s law in Romans 7:7 (not marriage law) is to give us a knowledge of sin is holy, just and good in Romans 7:12.

The context of Romans 7:4 is to the example of the law of marriage and being married to the new husband (Christ) in the Spirit *Romans 7:1-6. While we are married to the flesh (the old sinful man) we cannot be married to Christ in the Spirit. Romans 7:5-6 adds a little more clarity [5], For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.[6], But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. The wages of sin is death according to the scriptures but the gift of God is JESUS our new husband to those who have died to the flesh (see Romans 6) and been made free to walk in the Spirit *Romans 6:23; Romans 7:1-6; Romans 8:1-4; 13; Galatians 5:16. Have a prayerful read of Romans 6 dear friend. It will help your study as Romans 7 is just a different expression of the same subject matter. Showing that it is sin that we die to not God’s law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7.

However, the law being discussed in Romans 7 is the ten commandments, the same law that said "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7). Just a feel verses earlier, we're told we've become dead to it (Romans 6:1-4). Yes, it makes sin known, but that doesn't mean we're under it. Paul says both that it makes sin known and that we've become dead to it, so I believe both.

I never said that Romans 7 was not talking about Gods’ 10 commandments. I posted earlier that the context of Romans 7:1-6 is not talking about Gods’10 commandments but the example of the “marriage” law between the flesh and the Spirit (the old man of sin and the new man that has died with Christ (see the contexts of Romans 6:1-23) as shown in Romans 7:1-3.

more to come...

 

[Leaf473]

Your response here...

There is no need thanks. Your response to the post you are quoting from only tells me that your not interested in a discussion here as you simply ignored what was posted to you and did not even bother answering my questions to you.

Take Care.

As you wish.

I am interested in discussing the law, but not in lengthy disputes about the law.

If a non-edifying dispute was avoided, I see that as an overall positive outcome.

Peace be with you, my brother!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We're literally told in Hebrews 9:1 of things from "the first covenant" (NKJV) and that among the list are "the tablets of the covenant" (Hebrews 9:4, NKJV). So again, the two tablets of the Ten Commandments are part of the old covenant, right? And the old covenant was for Israel of the flesh, not Israel of the spirit.

There is no where in Hebrews 9 that says anywhere that God’s 10 commandments are abolished. Hebrews 9 is contrasting the earthly Sanctuary which was only a copy of the heavenly and the earthly ministration of the Priesthood with heavenly ministration of the Priesthood in Christ and the great day of atonement with meat and drink offerings, the blood of bulls, goats and calves with Christ and his blood atonement for sin in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands in the new covenant *Hebrews 9: 6-12. Now if the earthly Sanctuary was only a copy of the heavenly (Hebrews 8:2-5; Hebrews 9:8-11) that Jesus now ministers in the new covenant on our behalf as our Great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us, then the same Sanctuary content that was in the earthly copy of the heavenly will be in the heavenly Sanctuary (Compare Hebrews 9:1-3 with Revelation 1:10-15 of Johns vision of Jesus. So Hebrews 9 only proves that Gods’ 10 commandments are a part of God’s new covenant. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, your mixing up the Mosiac “shadow laws” for remission of sins that include the old covenant Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) with Gods’ eternal laws that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness is when obeyed (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172). As posted earlier God’s Israel in both covenants are simply all those who believe and follow what Gods’ Word says.

(Also, “Therefore, it remains [left behind] for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.” is not what the verse says.) Did Joshua or did Joshua not enter the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:8-9? (I say he did not, but we all know he kept the weekly Sabbath.) What do you say? Did Joshua enter the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:8-9?

Actually, it is exactly what the scripture says in Aramaic the [left behind is mine based on the Greek] aded in

Aramaic
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains [left behind] for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Context of Hebrews 4:1-4 show that God’s rest/His rest/My rest is the “seventh day” created from the foundation of the world. That Gods people could not enter into because of unbelief and sin. Hebrews 4:8 [8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. The “another day”is in reference to the coming of the Messiah Jesus and the preaching of the Gospel. God's people in the wilderness did not enter “God's rest” as defined in Hebrews 4:3-4 as “the seventh day” Sabbath created from the foundation of the world because they hardened their hearts in unbelief and sin. (Hebrews 3:8-13; 17-20; Hebrews 4:1; 6-7). “For unto us was the gospel preached as well as unto them but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world”. – Hebrews 4:2-3. “So then, it remains [left behind] for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.” – Hebrews 4:9.

A detailed scripture review of Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 already posted in post # 310 and post # 311

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

My response to this can be seen earlier. I'm glad that you can see that "a Jew is also a part of mankind." This is also my point on Mark 2:27. Again, if we make "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 mean "all mankind," then we'd actually make Jesus contradict Exodus 31:17, Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12, and even the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:15, passages which specify the Sabbath as a covenant sign between God and the physical nation of Israel that was brought out of Egypt. The Sabbath couldn't be a covenant sign between God and Israel if it were already for everyone else anyway, right? No, it means the same thing it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

Well to be honest here I found your post here to simply be a hand waive of the post and the scriptures that you were quoting from while simply repeating what you said the first time that I was addressing through the scriptures. The key here again is scripture context and subject matter that determines word meanings not the word meanings that determine interpretation outside of context and scripture subject matter. According to the scriptures, as was shown earlier, from the very words of Jesus the Sabbath was made for man (mankind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27. The scriptures do not say anywhere that the Sabbath was made for Jews or physical Israel in Mark 2:27. If Jesus was stating that the Sabbath was made for the Jews he would have used the Greek word Ἰουδαῖος (Ioudaîos; G2453) or for Israel he would have said Ἰσραήλ (Israḗl | G2474).

Fact is though he specifically used the Greek word for human beings or mankind (ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444). So this right from the start has you reading into the scripture of Mark 2:27 what the scriptures are not saying or teaching. The evidence of this is further provided in Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 where God created the Sabbath for mankind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings. As Jesus says on the “seventh day” of the creation week. According to the scriptures when God created the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob, no Moses, no Jew, no Israel, no law, no sin and no plan of salvation given. There was only Adam and Eve representing the first of all mankind made in the image of God created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31) that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

As posted a little earlier, according to the scriptures, context and subject matter with prayerful help from God’s Spirit, determine word meanings for scripture interpretation. Firstly, a Jew is also a part of mankind [Greek, anthropos]. This is the context and application of John 7:22-23. As posted earlier, the context and subject matter here and application of man [Greek, anthropos] in John 7:22-23 is to circumcision (subject matter). Circumcision was not given to God’s people of the old covenant at creation but was given to Abraham of the sign of the covenant that God made with him and His seed that shall become a great nation (Genesis 17:9-14). There was no Abraham, no Jew, no Israel no Moses, no sin, and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin and no circumcision because there was no covenant given to those who believed and followed Gods’ Word at creation. Only Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31 that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week in Genesis 2:1-3.

not much more to come

..............

Well thanks for the discussion. I might stop here. As posted earlier we might be better to go one post at a time so as to allow others to join in but it is up to you. I love discussing the scriptures and am enjoying the discussion. Thanks for sharing

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

Are you saying that the law (the whole law) does not grant the knowledge of sin?

I've thought the same thing.

Wouldn't everything in the law give some kind of knowledge or information about sin?

 

[Bob S]

It is impossible for one to accuse Gentiles of sinning because they didn't observe the ritual commands given only to Israel. Like wise, it is impossible to accuse and convict Christians of sinning because we do not believe the ritual laws of the old covenant (given only to Israel) could ever be binding on us. Yet, in this series of debate one side is trying to convince us that indeed somehow we are sinning.

Everyone knows that the feast days, new moons and weekly Sabbaths of the old covenant were ritual commands given only to Israel. The weekly Sabbath command was made for only Israel to commemorate their freedom from Egyptian bondage and for remembrance of God and His Creation. No other nation was commanded to observe any of the rituals. When did God change His mind and impose those commands on all the other nations?

Christian's allegiance is to Jesus who kept the Father's commands and gave mankind the Royal Law of Love. Our duty and out of our love to Jesus is to love others as He loves us. There is no hint in all of the New Testament that Christians are in any way under the ritual commands that Jesus kept. 2Cor 3:6-9 rules out the 10 commandments and the renting of the vale, at Jesus death, rules out the sacrificial system requirements Jews had been subject.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is impossible for one to accuse Gentiles of sinning because they didn't observe the ritual commands given only to Israel. Like wise, it is impossible to accuse and convict Christians of sinning because we do not believe the ritual laws of the old covenant (given only to Israel) could ever be binding on us. Yet, in this series of debate one side is trying to convince us that indeed somehow we are sinning.

Everyone knows that the feast days, new moons and weekly Sabbaths of the old covenant were ritual commands given only to Israel. The weekly Sabbath command was made for only Israel to commemorate their freedom from Egyptian bondage and for remembrance of God and His Creation. No other nation was commanded to observe any of the rituals. When did God change His mind and impose those commands on all the other nations?

Christian's allegiance is to Jesus who kept the Father's commands and gave mankind the Royal Law of Love. Our duty and out of our love to Jesus is to love others as He loves us. There is no hint in all of the New Testament that Christians are in any way under the ritual commands that Jesus kept. 2Cor 3:6-9 rules out the 10 commandments and the renting of the vale, at Jesus death, rules out the sacrificial system requirements Jews had been subject.

According to the scriptures God never made a covenant with Gentiles *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. God's Israel in the new covenant is no longer only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but include all those who are born of the Spirit by believing and following what God's Word says *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29. If we are not a part of Gods' Israel we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise. Gentile believers are now grafted in with Jewish believers and we are all now one in Christ *Romans 11:13-27. The creation Sabbath of God's 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to the scriptures *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and James says if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin. This includes Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments where James says if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 if we knowingly continue in unbelief and sin after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His word and we continue to reject it, there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come which shall devour the adversaries. Sunday worship as a replacement for God's 4th commandment, is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break His commandments we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. I guess this begs the question who do we believe and follow; God or man (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29)? According to the scriptures, no one loves God by not believing what God's Word says or breaking his commandments according to the scriptures (see Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10: Romans 3:31; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4; John 14:15; John 15:10; John 3:36. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) Bob.

 

[Kilk1]

Thanks for asking. As a preamble:
Titus 3:8ff These things are good and profitable to men; but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning; knowing that such a one is perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.

In my experience, when a discussion about the law (or any excessively fine point of the scriptures) goes on for too long, people often give in to the temptation to become frustrated and angry. Works of the flesh often ensue.

I'm not saying the above is what is happening here. But I myself have been part of many very long discussions about the law on this forum and in the end, even after all of my efforts, the other person did not appear to be edified.
(I also confess that I have been involved in unprofitable, vain things and been that factious person.)

So I set about looking for a more edifying, or at least a shorter, way of talking about Christian living.

Everyone I know of who is in favor of keeping at least some of the laws from the law of Moses
(as Luke used the term: the first five books of the Bible)
also says that we don't keep all of them. This then raises the question, Do you have a list?

(It can be a list of the shadows or universals, whichever is shorter.)

Without such a list, the person is in the position of saying,
It's very important that we keep certain laws, though I can't say which ones exactly.

To be continued...

Continued from above...

I'll use an example from a different subject, hopefully people can see the parallel.

While discussing flat Earth ideas with a flat earther, I realized that it would be really handy to have a flat Earth map so we could talk about distances that a flat Earth would require.

But it turned out the Christian brother I was talking with could not produce a map that he liked.

I suggested something like this

But no, he didn't like it. So I basically left it with,
When you find a map you like, let me know and we'll resume the discussion.

If a person looks at just the scriptures and never lifts their nose out of the pages, they can make a good case for a flat Earth.
What Does the Bible Say About Flat Earth?
It's only when you try to apply the results of that study to the real world that problems begin to arise imo.

Note that the map is fairly accurate around the far north. It's when you go south the things get strange. Check out the shape of Australia.

So also if a person believes they have discovered in the scriptures the process or algorithm for separating shadow laws from universal laws, it seems fair to ask if they can produce a list in the real world.

I think it would be easy to hold the concepts of shadow and universal laws in your mind, just as it is easy to hold the concept of a flat Earth in your mind. It's making a real world copy where the difficulties arise, again imo.

Tying in with this idea that the law as a whole is a shadow:
It's possible that Paul and the writer of Hebrews have in mind Plato's allegory of the cave.

I've heard that this idea was very well known in the Greek world at that time.

https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/platos-allegory-of-the-cave/

Actually, this reminds me of a time when I've tried to determine how life could practically arise from natural causes. I looked up articles trying to find if anyone was able to come up with a hypothetical first organism, one that 1) was complex enough to reproduce and mutate and 2) simple enough to have been created by chance. I couldn't find anything giving even a hypothetical model completing those criteria; the only reference to such is how such can't seem to be done.

It's easy to say life could exist without God, but coming up with even a hypothetical model of what such an organism might have looked like is a task no one's been able to actually perform, at least as far as I've been able to see.

Oh, wait, we're talking about the Sabbath, and I'm derailing the conversation. Interesting thoughts, though.

 

[Kilk1]

Well I was surprised to see you have been busy Kilk. Thanks for taking some time to consider the scriptures in the posts shared with you. I did not agree with much but will show why I disagree from the scriptures again. I did find that there was some repetition so I may not respond to every post if I have made a scriptural response already. I will follow the same pattern as your posts here and some will be smaller some larger. I think after this however (because I am responding to many posts) it may be easier to just do one post at a time to give others the opportunity to participate in the discussion and respond if they would like to if that is fine with you as it is your thread of course.

Thanks for your replies. I agree that the one-post-at-a-time approach would be best at this point. A common theme I noticed throughout your replies, one that I was hoping to avoid when I made my replies--so much so that I even asked some questions about it beforehand--is this: We seem to have different understandings of Israel. I would like to address this in some detail, as I think it's key, and it sounds that you agree this is a key difference in our conclusions.

I tried to avoid confusion earlier by asking questions beforehand. One of them was, "are you saying that Israel in the Old Testament refers to the physical descendants of Abraham (i.e., those he physically is the ancestor of, regardless of whether they were obedient) while Israel in the New Testament is spiritual, referring to those in Christ (i.e., Christians, regardless of whether they are physical descendants of Abraham)?" To this, you replied, "That is exactly what I am saying and this is demonstrated in the scriptures already provided."

From this, it would sound like you'd agree that the old covenant was made specifically for those that Abraham "physically is the ancestor of, regardless of whether they were obedient." From here, I showed that the Sabbath was given specifically for old covenant Israel. As you may recall, I said that because of this, if we make "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 mean "all mankind," then we'd actually make Jesus contradict Exodus 31:17, Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12, and even the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:15, passages which specify the Sabbath as a covenant sign between God and the physical nation of Israel that was brought out of Egypt. The Sabbath couldn't be a covenant sign between God and Israel if it were already for everyone else anyway, right?

From this, I said that "man" therefore means the same thing in Mark 2:27 that it means in other places that discuss practices for old covenant Israel, such as John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "man" means specifically "Jews."

It seems that when I make this point, you then say that "Israel according to the scriptures is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says as shown through the scriptures already." This is where I'm very much confused.Here are two positions:

1. "Israel in the Old Testament refers to the physical descendants of Abraham (i.e., those he physically is the ancestor of, regardless of whether they were obedient) while Israel in the New Testament is spiritual, referring to those in Christ (i.e., Christians, regardless of whether they are physical descendants of Abraham)." This is my (Kilk1's) position, which you (LGW) said "is exactly what I [i.e., LGW] am saying and this is demonstrated in the scriptures already provided" (emphasis mine).
   
2. "Israel according to the scriptures is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says as shown through the scriptures already"—quote from you (emphasis mine).

So which is it? You claim that both positions are true, but I don't see how. Are there two senses of Israel in the Bible (Romans 9:6), the old covenant Israel based on physical ancestry and the new covenant Israel based instead on faith/obedience (my position, which you claim is exactly what you're saying as well)? Or does Israel "only" ever refer to "all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says"?

I don't see how you can answer "both," but you wholeheartedly endorsed position 1 (my position) as being "exactly what" you've been saying while also claiming Israel "only" refers to those who believe and follow God's word. I think this is why I'm confused, and it's also something @Bob S is likely having trouble understanding as well, based on his last post.

So what I'd like to ask in this post is if you could clarify how you believe both positions 1 and 2 above. How do you reconcile the two?

Also, a second question: If you agree that there are two Israels, do you believe all the laws given under the old covenant to the old Israel are transferred to the new Israel under the new covenant, perhaps?

If so, and all the laws have been transferred, then I'd also ask a third question: Why aren't we required to abstain from unclean meats (Acts of the Apostles 10:9-16; 1 Timothy 4:3-5)?