The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

[Torah Keeper]

LGW, I am a fellow Sabbatarian, but give someone else a chance to talk

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW, I am a fellow Sabbatarian, but give someone else a chance to talk

Hi TK, if you follow our conversation through, I am only responding with a detailed response and critique I promised to @Kilk1 of his last three posts for discussion. I am nearly finished posting all my responses and only have a few posts to go. I could of put everything into 4-5 very large posts but I know they would not be read by most people so decided to break everything down into smaller posts section by section and scripture by scripture for ease of reply and discussion. I probably can stop here however if I am requested to as I have covered most of his posts content and subject matter already. I have a few posts I have already made with a detailed response for Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 but I can put them off as I have responded already in this regards and we can always discuss these latter if needed.

@Kilk1 I have made some brief comments on Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 already, however, if you would like a detailed discussion on Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 let me know as I have studied this in detail and happy to discuss the detail here proving Sabbath observance of God's 4th commandment there. I was going to post detail on this topic but I will stop as someone has requested. Let me know if you would like to discuss Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 in detail?

In summary though I did not see that you provided any scripture to support Sunday keeping claims in response to my 22 questions in post # 171 linked. Is that a fair comment?

Take Care and thanks for the discussion

 

[Kilk1]

LGW, I am a fellow Sabbatarian, but give someone else a chance to talk

LGW is correct that he's replying piece-by-piece to what I've written. I have no objections to him doing so.

 

[Kilk1]

Hi TK, if you follow our conversation through, I am only responding with a detailed response and critique I promised to @Kilk1 of his last three posts for discussion. I am nearly finished and only have a few posts to go. I could of put everything into 4-5 very large posts but I know they would not be read by most people so decided to break everything down into smaller posts section by section and scripture by scripture for ease of reply and discussion. I probably can stop here however if I am requested to as I have covered most of his posts content and subject matter already. I have a a few posts with a detailed response for Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 but I can put them off as I have responded already in this regards and we can always discuss these latter if needed.

@Kilk1 I have made some brief comments on Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 already, however, if you would like a detailed discussion on Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 let me know as I have studied this in detail and happy to discuss the detail here proving Sabbath observance of God's 4th commandment there. I was going to post detail on this topic but I will stop as someone has requested. Let me know if you would like to discuss Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 in detail?

In summary though I did not see that you provided any scripture to support Sunday keeping claims in response to my 22 questions in post # 171 linked. Is that a fair comment?

Take Care and thanks for the discussion

I'll get to your replies eventually. As for now, in answer to your question on whether or not I provided Scripture, there was Acts of the Apostles 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, etc. that are relevant to worshiping on the first day of the week. Whether my interpretation of them is correct or not may be up to discussion, but the fact that I provided Scriptures is clear, at least. I may be misunderstanding your question, though, so no worries.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'll get to your replies eventually. As for now, in answer to your question on whether or not I provided Scripture, there was Acts of the Apostles 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, etc. that are relevant to worshiping on the first day of the week. Whether my interpretation of them is correct or not may be up to discussion, but the fact that I provided Scriptures is clear, at least. I may be misunderstanding your question, though, so no worries.

No hurry Kilk, I am enjoying our discussion but a little time restricted at the moment as well. As to the 22 questions asked in post # 171 linked they are asking for scripture to support the claims that many Sunday keeping Church's make in regards to either the creation "Sabbath" of God's 10 commandments or "Sunday worship". I have not seen you provide any scriptures to support these claims made in the questions in the linked post. Even here in regards to Acts of the Apostles 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 where does it say in these scriptures that Sunday or the first day of the week is a day set aside for the worship of God in place of God's 4th commandment? - They don't. Keep in mind I believe we should worship God everyday of the week and this is what the disciples did according to Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 but that does not make everyday a holy day or rest or one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken now does it (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)?

Take Care.

 

[Bob S]

I believe Kilk is as Australians would say "spot on" in his response to new covenant Sabbath observance except for one point. I find that there is nothing said in the New Testament that would indicate that Christians should consider one day above another. Obviously, many things happened on Sunday, but as to its being held in esteem does not exist. Our only admonition is: Heb 10: 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Sunday meets the needs of most Christians and certainly God's blessings have been poured out to the faithful. Saturday, to some, meets their needs. The only problem is that some Sabbath observers declare that those who don't agree with them are going to miss the boat.

 

[Kilk1]

I believe Kilk is as Australians would say "spot on" in his response to new covenant Sabbath observance except for one point. I find that there is nothing said in the New Testament that would indicate that Christians should consider one day above another. Obviously, many things happened on Sunday, but as to its being held in esteem does not exist. Our only admonition is: Heb 10: 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Sunday meets the needs of most Christians and certainly God's blessings have been poured out to the faithful. Saturday, to some, meets their needs. The only problem is that some Sabbath observers declare that those who don't agree with them are going to miss the boat.

There seems to be a recognition of some day as being "the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10), and the new, not-previously-mentioned name doesn't seem to be about a day that already existed in Old Testament times, suggesting it's a new day (Acts of the Apostles 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2). The implications of such isn't my primary focus in this thread, however, as I'm focusing on the Sabbath--and contrary to the views of some, I don't believe Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath."

 

[Kilk1]

No hurry Kilk, I am enjoying our discussion but a little time restricted at the moment as well. As to the 22 questions asked in post # 171 linked they are asking for scripture to support the claims that many Sunday keeping Church's make in regards to either the creation "Sabbath" of God's 10 commandments or "Sunday worship". I have not seen you provide any scriptures to support these claims made in the questions in the linked post. Even here in regards to Acts of the Apostles 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 where does it say in these scriptures that Sunday or the first day of the week is a day set aside for the worship of God in place of God's 4th commandment? - They don't. Keep in mind I believe we should worship God everyday of the week and this is what the disciples did according to Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 but that does not make everyday a holy day or rest or one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken now does it (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)?

Take Care.

One thing I noticed multiple times as I looked through your posts is your response to the argument that the Sabbath was given specifically to Israel. This is a key argument of mine, so to make sure I understand your response correctly before I start replying to your posts, are you saying that if God gives a sign specifically for physical Israel (the physical nation that came out of Egypt), the same commandment would also have to apply to spiritual Israel today (all those who follow God)?

Also, would you agree that the Gentile nations were not commanded to keep the Sabbath in Old Testament times but rather, Israel specifically (thus, a "sign" to "sanctify" Israel)?

 

[Leaf473]

I was reluctant to post this since I don't want to interrupt the flow of thought. But imo the link below does relate well to both Colossians 2:16ff and the Lord's Day.

The epistle of Barnabas puts the weekly Sabbath in the same list as sacrifices and new moons:
"...your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure. He has therefore abolished these things..."

Ignatius of Antioch
"...no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day..."

Quotes from Early Church Fathers: the Sabbath, Lord's Day, and Worship - Apostles Creed

I readily grant these are not scripture. But I do think it is informative to see how people who lived shortly after the scriptures were written understood these issues.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe Kilk is as Australians would say "spot on" in his response to new covenant Sabbath observance except for one point. I find that there is nothing said in the New Testament that would indicate that Christians should consider one day above another. Obviously, many things happened on Sunday, but as to its being held in esteem does not exist. Our only admonition is: Heb 10: 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Sunday meets the needs of most Christians and certainly God's blessings have been poured out to the faithful. Saturday, to some, meets their needs. The only problem is that some Sabbath observers declare that those who don't agree with them are going to miss the boat.

Nice to see you again Bob, long time no see?

Of course you would say this Bob as you teach that Gods' commandments are abolished which I do not believe is biblical. Gods' Word disagrees with this teaching (Matthew 5:17-20; 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures in the new testament God's 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25.

Jesus fulfilled all the prophetic "shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) which included all the old covenant laws for remission of sins under the Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary, the animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the annual Feast days that all pointed to him as he coming Messiah and Gods' true sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (see John 1:29: 36; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22).

All these Mosiac shadow laws of the book of the covenant all pointed to Jesus and are fulfilled and continued in Him who is now our great High Priest who ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (Hebrews 8:1-5). Jesus also perfect obeyed Gods 10 commandments and as our sinless sacrifice offered himself for the sins of the world. Jesus however did not obey Gods' law so that we are now free to break God's law. If we break Gods' law we stand guilty before God of sin and for those who knowingly practice sin according to Hebrews 10:26-27 there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come which shall devour the adversaries.

Sin defined as the transgression of God's law in 1 John 3:4 or breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 or not believing and following God's Word in Romans 14:23 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:9-10. As discussed with you many times now in our past conversations Jesus and the Apostles all taught and obeyed Gods' 10 commandments (scriptures here) and everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of Christian living (scriptures here).

According to Romans 14 we are not to consider one day above another for eating and drinking or fasting and judging others in this regards. This is the context of Romans 14 there is nothing about Gods' 10 commandments or Gods' 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14 and to get that interpretation you need to read that into the scriptures because it is not there. According to the scriptures we hold our hope we profess by believing and following what Gods' Word says. If we do not believe and follow what God's Word says according to the scriptures the wrath of God remains on us (see John 3:31; Hebrews 10:26-31).

Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word foretold in Daniel 7:25 and is why God says to "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy *Exodus 20:8. God knew we would forget it in order to follow man-made teachings and traditions that break His commandments. Jesus warns us about doing this in Matthew 15:3-9 and says if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God and if we are not worshiping God then this begs the question who are we worshiping; God or man whose tradition has led the world away from God and His Word?

According to the scriptures, I believe God's has His people in every Church *John 10:16 who live up to all the knowledge God has revealed to them through His Word, but Jesus says that the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling all that have eyes to see and ears to hear to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions back to worship Him in Spirit and in truth according to His Word *Revelation 17:1-5; Revelation 18:1-5. God's sheep hear His voice and follow him. Many will no hear and will not follow according to John 10:26-27 because they are not His sheep.

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

One thing I noticed multiple times as I looked through your posts is your response to the argument that the Sabbath was given specifically to Israel. This is a key argument of mine, so to make sure I understand your response correctly before I start replying to your posts, are you saying that if God gives a sign specifically for physical Israel (the physical nation that came out of Egypt), the same commandment would also have to apply to spiritual Israel today (all those who follow God)?
Also, would you agree that the Gentile nations were not commanded to keep the Sabbath in Old Testament times but rather, Israel specifically (thus, a "sign" to "sanctify" Israel)?

Hi Kilk, nice to see you here again and hope you and your family had a nice Xmas break.

According to the scriptures if we trace the origins and meanings of the name of "Israel" through both the old and new testament scriptures you will see that it is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow His Word. The old covenant promise to Abraham is fulfilled in all those born of the flesh in the seed of Abraham and all those who attach themselves to Israel through circumcision. These all also being "shadows of things to come" from the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7.

In the new covenant Jesus says unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3-7) because those who are born again do not practice sin (see 1 John 3:4-9; 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 10:26-27; Romans 14:23) by breaking Gods' commandments or not believing and following what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures Gods "Israel" is no longer only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but is now all those who through faith in Gods' Word have been born again in the Spirit to love, by believing and following what Gods' Word says *see Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians in fulfillment of God's new covenant promise which is only ever made to "Israel" (see Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

If we are not a part of God's Israel according to the scriptures we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise. Therefore Gods' Israel in the new covenant is simply all those who by faith believe and follow what God's Word says and have His law written on the fleshly tables of the heart through love *2 Corinthians 3:3-18; Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 5:2-4; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12.

As shown in the scriptures above,love does not abolish God's law. Love establishes Gods' law in all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. According to the scriptures, God's true Israel is simply all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says (see also John 8:31-36). If Gods' Israel is simply all those who believe and follow what God's Word says, then are we God's true Israel if we do not believe and follow what His Word says? Of course not.

No one is a part of God's true Israel if they do not believe and follow what God's Word says according to the scriptures (John 10:26-27). Faith in Gods' Word according to the scriptures does not abolish Gods' law in establishes Gods' law in all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Romans 3:31). We cannot know God's Word if we do not prayerfully seek Him to understand it for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are Gods' ways from our ways and he brings to nothing the wisdom of the wise.

Of course Gods' true Israel in both the old and the new covenant is simply a name given by God to his people who believe and follow what His Word says. The Sabbath is an everlasting covenant and a sign that God is saving us (sanctifying us and setting us apart) from all the people of the world (Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12) and it will be continued to be kept in the new heavens and the new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23). My argument is that if God's Word is for God's people and the scriptures show that Gods' people are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says through faith in the scriptures and that God named these people "Israel" in the old and new covenants then we should not disregard what God's Word says. This of course includes Gods' 10 commandments that he gave to "Israel" defined in the scriptures as all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says. (see here)

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There seems to be a recognition of some day as being "the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10), and the new, not-previously-mentioned name doesn't seem to be about a day that already existed in Old Testament times, suggesting it's a new day (Acts of the Apostles 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2). The implications of such isn't my primary focus in this thread, however, as I'm focusing on the Sabbath--and contrary to the views of some, I don't believe Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath."

We can let the scriptures answer this question and there is no need to guess what day is "the Lords day" here. If we go by the scriptures and by scripture alone there is not a single scripture and all of God's Word that says "Sunday" or the "first day of the week" is "the Lords day" or the day belonging to the Lord. The only day that Jesus as the God of creation claims ownership over is "the Sabbath day" So letting the scriptures answer the question "What day is "the Lords day" we read "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." - Matthew 12:8. So there you have it. The Lords day or the day that Jesus as the God of creation claims ownership over is "the Sabbath day" not Sunday. Sunday worship as "the Lords day" is not biblical. It is simply another man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by scripture. This one is worth looking into if you have some time.

God bless

 

[klutedavid]

We can let the scriptures answer this question and there is no need to guess what day is "the Lords day" here. If we go by the scriptures and by scripture alone there is not a single scripture and all of God's Word that says "Sunday" or the "first day of the week" is "the Lords day" or the day belonging to the Lord. The only day that Jesus as the God of creation claims ownership over is "the Sabbath day" So letting the scriptures answer the question "What day is "the Lords day" we read "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." - Matthew 12:8. So there you have it. The Lords day or the day that Jesus as the God of creation claims ownership over is "the Sabbath day" not Sunday. Sunday worship as "the Lords day" is not biblical. It is simply another man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by scripture. This one is worth looking into if you have some time.

God bless

Christians can gather and break bread on any day of the week. Anyone who claims that Christians can only gather and break bread, on a specific day, is dead wrong.

The new covenant that Christ established was not the old covenant based on the ten commandments.

OLD COVENANT

Hebrews 9:19
For when every commandment (10 Commandments) had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.”

The ten commandments (every commandment) are obsolete, as the old covenant is obsolete.

If the old covenant was still in force today, then we would still need the Levitical priesthood.

If the old covenant (every commandment) was still active, then we would be circumcised.

If the old covenant commandments had to be obeyed, we would still be sacrificing.

If the old covenant still stands (the law) then the physical temple is the center of our world. God still resides in that physical temple.

If the old covenant has sway, then the court of the Gentiles is the demarcation between the Jews and Gentiles.

The old covenant stands on the book of the law (ten commandments).

The new covenant replaced the old covenant.

The yoke of the law was replaced with the grace of God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Christians can gather and break bread on any day of the week. Anyone who claims that Christians can only gather and break bread, on a specific day, is dead wrong.

Who is arguing with you that we cannot break bread everyday of the week like the early disciples did in Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47? If no one said you cannot break bread everyday of the week as shown in the scripture above why are you pretending that this is what I have said here? If I am in agreement that the disciples broke bread from house to house everyday of the week what is your argument? - You have none because we are in agreement.

The new covenant that Christ established was not the old covenant based on the ten commandments.

And right here is where many make their mistake. The old covenant was never only Gods' 10 commandments. The old covenant included God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of good and evil *Romans 3:20; Psalms 119:172 but also included all the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins from the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 now fulfilled and continued in Christ under the new covenant. Your mixing up the shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) with God's eternal laws that have the same role they always had under the new covenant and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25.

OLD COVENANT Hebrews 9:19 For when every commandment (10 Commandments) had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.”

The ten commandments (every commandment) are obsolete, as the old covenant is obsolete.
If the old covenant was still in force today, then we would still need the Levitical priesthood.
If the old covenant (every commandment) was still active, then we would be circumcised.
If the old covenant commandments had to be obeyed, we would still be sacrificing.
If the old covenant still stands (the law) then the physical temple is the center of our world. God still resides in that physical temple. If the old covenant has sway, then the court of the Gentiles is the demarcation between the Jews and Gentiles. The old covenant stands on the book of the law (ten commandments). The new covenant replaced the old covenant. The yoke of the law was replaced with the grace of God.

You may want to consider the scripture context in Hebrew 9. There is nowhere in Hebrews 9 that says Gods' 10 commandments are obsolete. Your reading that into the scriptures. You may also want to consider your view on what you believe the old covenant is. Hebrews 9:19 is talking about the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) and the context is the old covenant laws for remission of sins and sin offerings and ratifying the old covenant through blood sacrifice and atonement and comparing this to the new covenant being ratified (officially started) through the blood of Christ! Your claim that Hebrews 9 is referring to God's 10 commandments being obsolete pretty much contradicts the whole bible and the new testament teachings of Jesus and the Apostles (scripture support here). God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) because it is through the law that we have a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) which leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. According to the scriptures faith does not abolish God's law like your teaching, it establishes God's law in the hearts of all those who through faith have been born again by the Spirit of God to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (see Romans 3:31; 1 John 3:4-9). This is God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 13:8-10; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 Anyhow something to pray about I guess. God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Take Care

 

[Kilk1]

Hi Kilk, nice to see you here again and hope you and your family had a nice Xmas break.

According to the scriptures if we trace the origins and meanings of the name of "Israel" through both the old and new testament scriptures you will see that it is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow His Word. The old covenant promise to Abraham is fulfilled in all those born of the flesh in the seed of Abraham and all those who attach themselves to Israel through circumcision. These all also being "shadows of things to come" from the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7.

In the new covenant Jesus says unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3-7) because those who are born again do not practice sin (see 1 John 3:4-9; 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 10:26-27; Romans 14:23) by breaking Gods' commandments or not believing and following what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures Gods "Israel" is no longer only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but is now all those who through faith in Gods' Word have been born again in the Spirit to love, by believing and following what Gods' Word says *see Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians in fulfillment of God's new covenant promise which is only ever made to "Israel" (see Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

If we are not a part of God's Israel according to the scriptures we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise. Therefore Gods' Israel in the new covenant is simply all those who by faith believe and follow what God's Word says and have His law written on the fleshly tables of the heart through love *2 Corinthians 3:3-18; Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 5:2-4; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12.

As shown in the scriptures above,love does not abolish God's law. Love establishes Gods' law in all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. According to the scriptures, God's true Israel is simply all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says (see also John 8:31-36). If Gods' Israel is simply all those who believe and follow what God's Word says, then are we God's true Israel if we do not believe and follow what His Word says? Of course not.

No one is a part of God's true Israel if they do not believe and follow what God's Word says according to the scriptures (John 10:26-27). Faith in Gods' Word according to the scriptures does not abolish Gods' law in establishes Gods' law in all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Romans 3:31). We cannot know God's Word if we do not prayerfully seek Him to understand it for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are Gods' ways from our ways and he brings to nothing the wisdom of the wise.

Of course Gods' true Israel in both the old and the new covenant is simply a name given by God to his people who believe and follow what His Word says. The Sabbath is an everlasting covenant and a sign that God is saving us (sanctifying us and setting us apart) from all the people of the world (Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12) and it will be continued to be kept in the new heavens and the new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23). My argument is that if God's Word is for God's people and the scriptures show that Gods' people are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says through faith in the scriptures and that God named these people "Israel" in the old and new covenants then we should not disregard what God's Word says. This of course includes Gods' 10 commandments that he gave to "Israel" defined in the scriptures as all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says. (see here)

Take Care.

Thank you!

I think I understand your position, then. You believe that we are under the same law that God's people have always been under. I plan to get to your posts eventually, but I have three questions for tonight:

1. What does it mean in Hebrews 7:12 that there's "a change of the law" (NKJV)? Doesn't this suggest, not that there's "no law," but that there's a different law than there was previously?
   
2. Would Romans 9:6-7 make clear that there are two separate senses of "Israel" and two separate senses of "children of Abraham"?
3. What "Israel" is the Israel God made a covenant with during the times of Abraham and of Moses?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thank you! I think I understand your position, then. You believe that we are under the same law that God's people have always been under.

Your welcome. However, no, that is not my position at all. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. I think it is what you think is the old covenant may be the problem here. What I have been sharing with you from the scriptures is that it is the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) that include; the Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary, all the laws in ordinances for animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the annual Feast days linked in to the meat and drink offerings that are now fulfilled and continued in Christ to who they pointed to. All these are "the shadows of things to come" pointing to Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world, once and for all (Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29) and His new ministration in the new covenant as our Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek bringing an end to the Levitical Priesthood and animal sacrifices for sins (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). These Mosiac laws of the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) are now fulfilled and obsolete and continued in Christ to who they all pointed to Jesus now ever lives to make intercession before God on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

I plan to get to your posts eventually, but I have three questions for tonight

No problem, take your time. My time is limited as well as I have real life work to attend to so I will not be here as much as I would like to.

1. What does it mean in Hebrews 7:12 that there's "a change of the law" (NKJV)? Doesn't this suggest, not that there's "no law," but a different law than there was previously?

Yes in a way but it is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments. It is a scripture reference to the laws of the Levitical Priesthood. According to the scriptures, Hebrews 7 in particular is talking about the change of the laws of the Priesthood from the Levitical Priesthood to that of Christs Priesthood of the order of Melchizedek (King of righteousness; King of peace) *Hebrews 7:2. According to the old covenant law only those born of the tribe of Levi were allowed to become Priests in the old covenant Sanctuary service and minister to God's people (e.g. Exodus 28:1-3; Numbers 1:48-53; Numbers 3:5-10; Deuteronomy 10:8 etc). Jesus was of the tribe of Juda and could not be a Priest under the Levitical Priesthood so there needed to be a change to these laws. Hebrews 7:12 says "For the priesthood being changed,(Levitical to Melchizedek) there is made of necessity a change also of the law." The changing of the law here is to the laws of the Priesthood only being available to the tribe of Levi. This is proven in the scripture context of Hebrews 7:1-11 comparing the Priesthood of Abraham and Melchizedek and to the Priests of Levi starting in Hebrews 7:5 then in Hebrews 7:11-12 it says "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron (Levi)? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. That is for a change of the Priesthood there needs to be a change in the law which states that the Priesthood belongs only to the tribe of Levi. This is made clear as we continue reading in Hebrews 7:13-14 "For he of whom these things are spoken (Jesus) pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood." The change of law here is the change of the Levitical Priesthood which is also the continued theme of Hebrews 7:15-28.

2. Would Romans 9:6-7 make clear that there are two separate senses of "Israel" and two separate senses of "children of Abraham"?
3. What "Israel" is the Israel God made a covenant with during the times of Abraham and of Moses?

These questions have been dealt with in the posts already provided to you in some detail and in post # 231 linked. Simply though Israel of the old covenant are all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham in fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. Gods' Israel in the new covenant is no longer only those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but all those who through faith are born of the Spirit of God by believing and following what Gods' Word says (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29). So rather than repeating myself, you may be interested in looking at a more detailed scripture study on who God's Israel is in the new covenant here linked. If you have any further question after reading the linked thread and the scriptures provided there please feel free to ask

.................

I guess the questions I would like to ask you is,

(1). If there is no scripture to support the claims made in regards to "Sunday worship" or no scripture to support the negative claims made in regards to the creation "Sabbath" of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments asked in post # 171 linked, who should we be following God's Word or man-made teachings and traditions that have led many to break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29?

(2). How do you think your answer to question 1 above relates to what Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9?

I guess I am asking a lot of questions but they are only questions that you can answer with God's guidance if you wish to follow God.


Take Care

 

[Leaf473]

The thread title implies that it's possible to separate the shadow laws from the universal laws.

If the shadow laws are about feast days, the Levitical priesthood, the earthly sanctuary, animal sacrifices, and sin offerings, it seems like there should only be a few left over as universals.

Maybe 20 or 30? Or am I way off base and there are hundreds of universal laws?

Discussions about the law seem to go on indefinitely. It looks to me like a simple, quick way to resolve the issues would be to list which laws are universal.

I think it would quickly resolve it, but I can't be sure since no one has ever posted a reasonable and complete list of the universal laws that I am aware of.

 

[Kilk1]

Your welcome. However, no, that is not my position at all. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. I think it is what you think is the old covenant may be the problem here. What I have been sharing with you from the scriptures is that it is the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) that include; the Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary, all the laws in ordinances for animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the annual Feast days linked in to the meat and drink offerings that are now fulfilled and continued in Christ to who they pointed to. All these are "the shadows of things to come" pointing to Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world, once and for all (Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29) and His new ministration in the new covenant as our Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek bringing an end to the Levitical Priesthood and animal sacrifices for sins (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). These Mosiac laws of the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) are now fulfilled and obsolete and continued in Christ to who they all pointed to Jesus now ever lives to make intercession before God on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

No problem, take your time. My time is limited as well as I have real life work to attend to so I will not be here as much as I would like to.

Yes in a way but it is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments. It is a scripture reference to the laws of the Levitical Priesthood. According to the scriptures, Hebrews 7 in particular is talking about the change of the laws of the Priesthood from the Levitical Priesthood to that of Christs Priesthood of the order of Melchizedek (King of righteousness; King of peace) *Hebrews 7:2. According to the old covenant law only those born of the tribe of Levi were allowed to become Priests in the old covenant Sanctuary service and minister to God's people (e.g. Exodus 28:1-3; Numbers 1:48-53; Numbers 3:5-10; Deuteronomy 10:8 etc). Jesus was of the tribe of Juda and could not be a Priest under the Levitical Priesthood so there needed to be a change to these laws. Hebrews 7:12 says "For the priesthood being changed,(Levitical to Melchizedek) there is made of necessity a change also of the law." The changing of the law here is to the laws of the Priesthood only being available to the tribe of Levi. This is proven in the scripture context of Hebrews 7:1-11 comparing the Priesthood of Abraham and Melchizedek and to the Priests of Levi starting in Hebrews 7:5 then in Hebrews 7:11-12 it says "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron (Levi)? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. That is for a change of the Priesthood there needs to be a change in the law which states that the Priesthood belongs only to the tribe of Levi. This is made clear as we continue reading in Hebrews 7:13-14 "For he of whom these things are spoken (Jesus) pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood." The change of law here is the change of the Levitical Priesthood which is also the continued theme of Hebrews 7:15-28.

These questions have been dealt with in the posts already provided to you in some detail and in post # 231 linked. Simply though Israel of the old covenant are all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham in fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. Gods' Israel in the new covenant is no longer only those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but all those who through faith are born of the Spirit of God by believing and following what Gods' Word says (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29). So rather than repeating myself, you may be interested in looking at a more detailed scripture study on who God's Israel is in the new covenant here linked. If you have any further question after reading the linked thread and the scriptures provided there please feel free to ask

I read your thread, and the following statement seems to answer my question:

Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...​

However, this statement doesn't use the terms "physical" or "spiritual," so just to make sure, are you saying that Israel in the Old Testament refers to the physical descendants of Abraham (i.e., those he physically is the ancestor of, regardless of whether they were obedient) while Israel in the New Testament is spiritual, referring to those in Christ (i.e., Christians, regardless of whether they are physical descendants of Abraham)?

To illustrate what I believe, I'd go to Romans 11:17-24. Here, Israel is compared to a cultivated olive tree. The branches are all the members of Israel. It used to contain all Jews, whether believers or unbelievers. However, under the New Testament, the standard for whether or not you qualify as "Israel" changed from whether you're a physical descendant, to instead be whether you're a believer. Therefore, the unbelieving Jews were cut off the tree, while believing Gentiles were grafted in. In other words, the branches originally were just the Jews, whether believing or unbelieving. Then, the unbelieving ones were cut off and replaced with believing Gentiles, so all believers--Jew or Gentiles--are now part of the tree in the New Testament, and all unbelievers--Jew or Gentiles--are now outside the tree.

Do you agree that the Old Testament was specifically for physical Israel? (Again, Romans 9:6-7 makes clear there are two senses of "Israel.")

I guess the questions I would like to ask you is,

(1). If there is no scripture to support the claims made in regards to "Sunday worship" or no scripture to support the negative claims made in regards to the creation "Sabbath" of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments asked in post # 171 linked, who should we be following God's Word or man-made teachings and traditions that have led many to break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29?

(2). How do you think your answer to question 1 above relates to what Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9?

I guess I am asking a lot of questions but they are only questions that you can answer with God's guidance if you wish to follow God.


Take Care

I'd disagree with the premise of Question (1). In other words, since Paul assembled with Christians on the first day of the week in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and since he also specifically ordered churches to give on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:1-2), I disagree that there is absolutely "no Scripture" in support of Sunday. After all, Paul could've ordered the churches to give on the Sabbath, but he instead said the first day of the week.

As for Question (2), we obviously should follow the word of God over the traditions of men. So that causes us to ask: Was Paul's order to give on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:1-2) a commandment of God or a tradition of men? Also, when he assembled with Christians on the first day of the week, was that of God or of men? Stated in a nutshell, are Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 of God or of men?

However, my focus in this thread isn't about the first day of the week but about the Sabbath. (Again, I agree that they're two separate things.) You mentioned that you're going to be busy, and I'm busy as well. With this in mind, I fear that if I reply to all your posts at length, it will not only take a lot of time on my end, but the end-product might be even longer than your posts, and then your response might have to be as long or longer than mine. Are you fine if my responses to some of the posts are shorter than the posts themselves, then? This would save me time, and then your response would take less time for you as well.

 

[Kilk1]

The thread title implies that it's possible to separate the shadow laws from the universal laws.

If the shadow laws are about feast days, the Levitical priesthood, the earthly sanctuary, animal sacrifices, and sin offerings, it seems like there should only be a few left over as universals.

Maybe 20 or 30? Or am I way off base and there are hundreds of universal laws?

Discussions about the law seem to go on indefinitely. It looks to me like a simple, quick way to resolve the issues would be to list which laws are universal.

I think it would quickly resolve it, but I can't be sure since no one has ever posted a reasonable and complete list of the universal laws that I am aware of.

That could possibly be helpful; I'm not sure. I don't have such a list. Perhaps someone else on this thread could make such a list? I don't know.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I read your thread, and the following statement seems to answer my question:

Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...​

This doesn't use the terms "physical" or "spiritual," so just to make sure, are you saying that Israel in the Old Testament refers to the physical descendants of Abraham (i.e., those he physically begot regardless of ), while Israel in the New Testament is spiritual, referring to those in Christ (i.e., Christians)?


I'd disagree with the premise of Question (1). In other words, since Paul assembled with Christians on the first day of the week in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and since he also specifically ordered churches to give on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:1-2), I disagree that there is absolutely "no Scripture" in support of Sunday. After all, Paul could've ordered the churches to give on the Sabbath, but he instead said the first day of the week.

As for Question (2), we obviously should follow the word of God over the traditions of men. So that causes us to ask: Was Paul's order to give on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:1-2) a commandment of God or a tradition of men? Also, when he assembled with Christians on the first day of the week, was that of God or of men? Stated in a nutshell, are Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 of God or of men?

However, my focus in this thread isn't about the first day of the week but about the Sabbath. (Again, I agree that they're two separate things.) You mentioned that you're going to be busy, and I'm busy as well. With this in mind, I fear that if I reply to all your posts at length, it will not only take a lot of time on my end, but the end-product might be even longer than your posts, and then your response might have to be as long or longer than mine. Are you fine if my responses to some of the posts are shorter than the posts themselves, then? This would save me time, and then your response would take less time for you as well.

Hi Kiki,

I know this was not directed to me, but I had a free moment and wanted to address the scripture that refers to the first day of the week .

There are only eight passages total.

1. “Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb” (Luke 24:1, 2).

This story relates the story of Jesus’ followers going to His tomb to finish the sad work of anointing His body for burial. With the Sabbath closing in on them the day before, these women hadn’t had time on Friday to anoint the Lord immediately after His death. Earlier verses confirm that “they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment” (Luke 23:56). Even in their grief, they honored Jesus by keeping all His commandments, including the Sabbath.

There are four more passages that refer to the resurrection of Jesus and are similar in nature to the verses above. They are …

2. Matthew 28:1
3. Mark 16:1–3
4. Mark 16:9
5. John 20:1

These verse confirm that Jesus rested in the grave on Saturday and appeared to His disciples in the morning on the first day of week. (See: Should we worship on Sunday to honor the resurrection.)

Now let’s look at the remaining three passages:

6. “Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, ‘Peace be with you’ ”(John 20:19).

Some claim the disciples met for Sunday worship, but if you examine the verse carefully, you’ll notice the words “for fear of the Jews”—that is the key phrase in fully understanding this passage. This was no Sunday worship fellowship. The disciples were afraid and were hiding from the Jews! Nothing in the verse hints at the first day being holy.

7. “Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come” (1 Corinthians 16:1, 2).

Here, Paul is suggesting that believers set aside a gift for the needy brethren. There’s no meeting inferred here. He’s simply asking them to store up a donation at home to be turned in at a later date.

8. “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (Acts 20:7).

Biblically, days begin at sundown, so this turns out to be the dark part of Sunday—what we would call Saturday night. At daybreak, when it is still Sunday, Paul sets off on a long hike to catch a ride on a ship (verse 13). If Sunday were the Lord’s Day, he wouldn’t have been starting on a journey.


Please notice not one scripture states 1) There is a change in God's Sabbath day from the seventh day to the first day. This would be critical if you are changing God's Word who clearly tells us: Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. and “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day Isaiah 58:13 it cannot be any clearer than this. 2) God blessed only the seventh day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11 There is no scripture stating the first day is holy or blessed for either God or for us. Once God blesses something it cannot be reversed. Numbers 23:20. 3) There is no commandment for Sunday keeping, but there is for Sabbath keeping Exodus 20:8-11 spoken and personally written by our Creator, placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in Heven Revelation 11:19. Jesus tells us to obey God's commandments over traditions Matthew 15:3-9 and the Ten Commandments came in a covenant of Ten, not nine Exodus 34:28 and God's laws which includes the Ten Commandments are now written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33 We should believe the Word of God. He promised the Sabbath would be an eternal covenant Exodus 31:16 which we see fulfilled Isaiah 66:23. God gives us six days to do all of our work, but asks for just one day per week, specifically the seventh day Sabbath to be kept holy and a memorial to our Creator. Why would anyone want to argue with this, because this is God's authority, not what was changed by man as predicted in scripture Daniel 7:25. People spend more time trying to discredit God's spoken and written Word about the seventh day Sabbath, referenced close to 160 times throughout scripture from the old to New Testament than they do trying to find this "hidden scripture" that does not say that the first day is God's new holy day, a day blessed by God, a commandment of God or the day in heaven we will be worshipping God. I truly don't understand this argument if seeking to do the will of God. Psalms 40:8

Thanks for allowing me to share. God bless!