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Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

power1

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What is the following verse referring to, if not the lake of fire?

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
That is fine

Obviously, that is just your opinion based on the assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 chronologically follows what is described in Revelation 19.
Nothing in there suggests or says Jesus returns a thousand years after the Trib, sorry
Where does scripture teach that there will be multiple judgment days? That's not what this says:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Well the great white throne judgment is after the thousand years. Our 'judgment' is after He gathers us in the air in heaven. (for rewards). Then there is the time Jesus returns and judges nations, takes over, etc.
This passage teaches that God has appointed a singular future day at which point He will judge "all people everywhere/the world/everyone "by the man he has appointed", which is obviously referring to Jesus. That singular judgment day is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
Great so that is the final judgment after the 1000 years.

Yes, they will be. How do you interpret this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Simple. He kills all His enemies in fiery wrath when He returns. That includes all the enemies gathered against Israel. They shall indeed be judged.
 
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DavidPT

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Your whole explanation is contradictory. If this is your millennium it is an absolute bust. It is a mess. It is full of war and terror.


Getting ready to eat but I will try and address this first. The millennium, in Zechariah 14 is not meaning during verses 1-5. It is meaning when verses 16-19 are meaning. I'm not contradicting anything, even if I'm wrong, since I'm not applying verses 16-19 during that of verses 1-5, I'm applying those verses post the fulfillment of verses 1-5.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Getting ready to eat but I will try and address this first. The millennium, in Zechariah 14 is not meaning during verses 1-5. It is meaning when verses 16-19 are meaning. I'm not contradicting anything, even if I'm wrong, since I'm not applying verses 16-19 during that of verses 1-5, I'm applying those verses post the fulfillment of verses 1-5.

Oh! So, the DOTL (in verse 1) does not usher in your millennium?
 
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power1

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Stop twisting what I said. It is real. It a figurative term. Thanks for your avoidance once more. The three and be a half year is also real. It could be literal or figurative. I am not sure. I relate it to Satan's little season before the second coming.
Try to be clear and not falsely accuse others of twisting your fuzzy nonsense. I asked if that was your main point in that multi coloured spam post. The answer should be yes or no. If not then simply post the main point.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Right, that is a theme that is clear in the bible for that end period. What about it?

Where? Where does it mention this in your supposed future millennium? You have provided nothing so far!
 
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sovereigngrace

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Try to be clear and not falsely accuse others of twisting your fuzzy nonsense. I asked if that was your main point in that multi coloured spam post. The answer should be yes or no. If not then simply post the main point.

You obviously have nothing biblical, as you duck around every contradiction that is highlighted. I believe you have to, to sustain your position.
 
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power1

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You obviously have nothing biblical, as you duck around every contradiction that is highlighted. I believe you have to, to sustain your position.
So you again fail to clearly state your main point. I don't blame you. I would also be embarrassed with the sort of doctrines to spam.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sorry, that is so basic it is not worth wasting time on.

Exactly! Your avoidance is typical of the Premil position. It reinforces my thesis that it is an extra-biblical non-corroborative theory. I think the reader can see that by your refusal to address issue after issue.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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That is fine
What do you mean? What basis is there for thinking that Matthew 25:41 is a different event than described in Revelation 20:15?

Nothing in there suggests or says Jesus returns a thousand years after the Trib, sorry
Scripture as a whole suggests that. We can't draw conclusions just from Revelation 20 alone. Does scripture as a whole support premillennialism? No, it does not. How do you interpret 2 Peter 3:3-13, for example? I have yet to see a Premil give a convincing interpretation of that passage.

Well the great white throne judgment is after the thousand years.[/quote Our 'judgment' is after He gathers us in the air in heaven. (for rewards). Then there is the time Jesus returns and judges nations, takes over, etc.
No, there is not. Scripture does not teach that there will be multiple judgment days.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Which of the multiple judgment days you believe in was Jesus referring to in the above verse?

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Which of the multiple judgment days you believe in was Peter referring to in the above verse?

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Which of the multiple judgment days you believe in was John referring to in the above verse?

Great so that is the final judgment after the 1000 years.
I agree that Matthew 25:31-46 is the final judgment after the thousand years, but the point is that scripture does not teach that there will be any other judgment besides that. God has set a day to judge everyone, not multiple days. That is what Acts 17:31 indicates. Also, the judgment portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 will occur when Jesus comes with His angels. That places the timing of His second coming after the thousand years, not before.

Simple. He kills all His enemies in fiery wrath when He returns. That includes all the enemies gathered against Israel. They shall indeed be judged.
So, that only leaves His people, right? Scripture says that we will be changed and have immortal bodies at that point (1 Cor 15:51-54), so that doesn't leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.
 
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power1

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Exactly! Your avoidance is typical of the Premil position. It reinforces my thesis that it is an extra-biblical non-corroborative theory. I think the reader can see that by your refusal to address issue after issue.
The fact that God restores and saves Israel is not up for debate. Is that it?
 
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sovereigngrace

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So you again fail to clearly state your main point. I don't blame you. I would also be embarrassed with the sort of doctrines to spam.

My points of issue with your end-time theory are multiple. I have only mentioned a few to you and you still have no answer. Corroboration is a basic crucial hermeneutical absolute that exposes your position.

My main point is that you have no corroboration for all of the main tenets of your position anywhere in Scripture. Where is your support? Premil somehow extrapolates two distinct physical future resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+ out of Rev 20. Where in Scripture does it even mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end? Nowhere! What Scripture (including Revelation 20) teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+? Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end? What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them? There is no other Scripture that teaches this doctrine. Premils force that upon the sacred text.
 
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power1

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What do you mean? What basis is there for thinking that Matthew 25:41 is a different event than described in Revelation 20:15?
What makes us certain that Mat 25 somehow means that the final judgment is not after the 1000 years? Either it refers to that, or there is also a judgment from Jesus at His return. In either case that has nothing to do with there being no 1000 years!

Scripture as a whole suggests that. We can't draw conclusions just from Revelation 20 alone. Does scripture as a whole support premillennialism? No, it does not.
I am not familiar with those terms. I think that means Jesus first returns and then rules for 1000 years? If so, yes, of course that is what the bible says.

How do you interpret 2 Peter 3:3-13, for example? I have yet to see a Premil give a convincing interpretation of that passage.
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
That is after the 1000 years as we know from other places in the bible.

And in the following verse in that chapter it is also talking of the same thing.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

That is after the milennium. Not when Jesus returns to rule and lands on the mount of Olives. That means that the period called the day of the Lord is not one single minute or hour or day. It has to be a period of time. In that day (at the end of it) after the 1000 years, the earth is burned and made new.

No, there is not. Scripture does not teach that there will be multiple judgment days.
Great, so we get no rewards in that judgment in heaven? Jesus does not take over the world when He returns, destroying all enemies? (that is a judgment)

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Which of the multiple judgment days you believe in was Jesus referring to in the above verse?

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
That seems to be that final judgment day when the dead are raised to be judged. Of course that is not the saved dead. That is after the 1000 years as the bible says.

Which of the multiple judgment days you believe in was Peter referring to in the above verse?

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
That could be talking about when He returns to rule, and/or in the days before when the world is being judged in wrath. In those days we need boldness (those believers that are left and alive then). When He judges the wicked at the end in the final great judgment, why would we need to be bold then?

I agree, but the point is that scripture does not teach that there will be any other judgment besides that. God has set a day to judge everyone, not multiple days. That is what Acts 17:31 indicates.
There is the seat of Christ when rewards are handed out after the Marriage Supper. Does that count? There is Jesus wiping out all enemies when He returns, does that count? If not, then all that is left is that great final judgment.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The fact that God restores and saves Israel is not up for debate. Is that it?
Not up for debate? You're saying that your belief that God is a respecter of persons is not up for debate even though scripture repeatedly says He is not a respecter of persons?

Why would God do something to save the people of the nation of Israel that He wouldn't do for the people of other nations? What more is He supposed to do than what He did long ago by sending His Son to sacrifice Himself for the sins of everyone in Israel and the world? Was that somehow not enough? Is there some other way that they will be saved besides willingly putting their faith and trust in Christ as their Lord and Savior, which they are free to do at any time?
 
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sovereigngrace

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What makes us certain that Mat 25 somehow means that the final judgment is not after the 1000 years? Either it refers to that, or there is also a judgment from Jesus at His return. In either case that has nothing to do with there being no 1000 years!

I am not familiar with those terms. I think that means Jesus first returns and then rules for 1000 years? If so, yes, of course that is what the bible says.

Please let the text speak for itself instead of forcing your beliefs upon it.

Jesus alludes to His coming in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, saying, When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

One of the great problems many encounter when trying to ascertain the meaning of such parables as this is that they feel compelled to view it through the lens of a well-formulated school of thought rather than letting such a simple allegory speak for itself. Many modern-day end-time students are so indoctrinated with a complicated system of theology that they are impaired from comprehending the meaning and application of many of the parables. They are forced to place a stretched meaning upon the narrative that correlates with their existing dogma. This results in the most amazing and fanciful of meanings to be placed upon the story.

For example, let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage before progressing further.

(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.
(3) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(4) These are both judged at His appearing.
(5) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(6) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(7) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(8) There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.
(9) The good receive eternal life.
(10) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(11) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
That is after the 1000 years as we know from other places in the bible.

And in the following verse in that chapter it is also talking of the same thing.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

That is after the milennium. Not when Jesus returns to rule and lands on the mount of Olives. That means that the period called the day of the Lord is not one single minute or hour or day. It has to be a period of time. In that day (at the end of it) after the 1000 years, the earth is burned and made new.

What? 2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” God will assuredly keep His Word

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact there are 3 mentions of this promise in 2 Peter 3.

We see the last of three references to God’s “promise” in verse 13. In it Peter describes the events that accompany Christ’s return as a thief. Whilst this day brings terror to the wicked, he reassures the believer that Christ’s coming is a day that we should anticipate with hope, as we, according to his promise (“the promise of his coming”), look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” God’s people “according to His promise” are going to be ushered unto the new perfected earth when He appears – a hope that should bring joy and comfort to the heart of every believer.
 
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DavidPT

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Oh! So, the DOTL (in verse 1) does not usher in your millennium?


It would precede it like the 2nd coming would precede it. Can you point out, the fact I'm using Zechariah 14:16-19 as support for the millennium, where it even remotely depicts any of the following taking place at the time, where you said to me the following in a previous post?

your millennium it is an absolute bust. It is a mess. It is full of war

Any wars are after the millennium, not during it. Only in Amil can there be wars paralleling the millennium. That is not the case with Premil, though. Plus, Premil doesn't have one single person still being deceived during the thousand years. Only Amil does.
 
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Timtofly

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I'm Premil and even I agree that there is recapping going on in the book of Revelation. It's not just an Amil thing then. I basically disagree with some, thus not all, of what they are proposing are recaps.
There is no recap of their alledged intra-advent period. The name they use to avoid being termed dispensational. Why not just call it like it has been the last 1991 years, the church age? That does not negate there have been church members since Abel, who offered up sacrifices in the original Garden, the first form of worship declared by God. There have been many church members including Job.

The church was not a steward prior to the Cross. That symbolism resided in the Nation of Israel, and all Nations were stewards prior to Abraham. We know Nations were not all decieved by Satan after the Flood, because Job and his friends were products of those nations. We just do not know much about them, because they have been lost to history, one way or the other.

Revelation 13 was a side note about history, not a recap of the church age. Many claim the admonition to the seven churches was a prophetic outline. Never heard it was an historical recap of the last 1991 years. Even if the part written specifically to the churches was a recap, John never declared it a recap. If it was a recap, why was it addressed to 7 known historical churches? Why not present those chapters as history unfolding?

The Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders are all separate and distinct events with distinct outcomes. They do not even cover the church age. Although many teach that perspective. Many humans teach their own opinions, and even write books about their own thoughts. The Koran and book of Mormon come to mind. Revelation is about the Second Coming, not really how to navigate the church age. Chapter 12 and 13 is just introducing Satan into the narrative.

Contrary to popular belief, not even the AC is named and introduced according to the prevailing eschatology view. Even such teachings themselves are extra biblical writings in addition to the actual words of John in Revelation. Any one can hold an opinion about which evil entity is which in Revelation 13, but John avoids confirming any current speculation. So any explanation is only human opinion on all sides. And Revelation 20 being an historical recap, totally ignores the text and context altogether. How can that not be mere human opinion, if it contradicts the text and context itself? John literally did not recap any of his witnessed events. Each step literally included "after this I saw". Not once did John state, "and let me recap that event again". Chapter 18, could be a recap of chapter 17, but even that is a stretch of imagination. During Satan's 42 months there seems to be some civil conflict between the last 10 Nations and Satan in authority. Probably lost focus on beheading people and forcing the mark, when no one was left to behead, and all had conformed to Satan's will by taking the mark. Towards the end fortunes had been amassed, and obvious some still felt equality was not achieved. Some were still bond men, and some free men. Just a natural recap of every standard generation and during a 3.5 year time period, barely an election cycle. But Satan being in total control and all humanity knowing who Satan was, is hardly a recap of any time in history, especially for Amil, as they declare Satan is bound and being loosed that way as public knowledge is their only proof that those chapters are not a recap, but still a future event. Except no where prior to Revelation 20 is Satan ever released to decieve the Nations. So Revelation 20 is not a recap of any other part of the book, much less the last 1991 years.

Revelation 12 is not a recap of Satan being defeated and bound. It is an historical side note. If it is a recap of history, it is not the same historical recap as Revelation 20. In fact they contradict each other if historical. Chapter 13 is prior to the FP and beast. Chapter 20 is post FP and beast. Not exactly historically compatible nor corroborative of each other. Certainly the FP and beast are not in the Lake of Fire in chapter 13. They are in the Lake of Fire the whole chapter 20. Now Amil have to figure out how to refute this, or twist Scripture to prove their point. Since Revelation 12 is indeed a look back at history, it would be the only legitimate recap of history. Otherwise what parts of Revelation does one easily place in the first century without being full preterist? I doubt most would even agree on what part in Revelation 12 has yet to be fulfilled as prophecy and not an historical fact. Can Satan being tossed out of heaven even be equated with being loosed from the pit? They are in opposite directions. Even the part about the third of the stars being cast down was millenniums prior to the birth of Christ.

We go from the nativity to Satan's rebellion to the future after those rebellious have been released themselves from the pit. Because after they are loosed they are kicked out of heaven, again by Michael. Do we place this last departure before the 42 months in Revelation 13, or at the end of the 42 months? How can one claim recap, and so many details are left out. The only reason for recap is to make sense of the details we do have and claim some working map of it all. Yet recap falls apart when those details cannot happen at the same time, but announce different events with different and distinct outcomes.

Then one has to literally overlook the very phrase "after this I saw or I heard" which John intentionally uses to declare separate and distinct events in chronological order. The OP makes us want to see this through preterist lenses looking at the first century. When absolutely "I saw", has not even happened yet, but John will soon write all he sees down, and then he will deliver his witness of the Second Coming to those first century churches. And the events are in chronological order, despite modern day opinions to the contrary.

And the reason they were delivered to the first century church, was because no one would accept any person today, claiming to see these things today and writing about them before they happened, today. These words would be lost in the sea of modern theology. The proof of failure is the addition of so called inspired writings from even before 600AD, since the most relevant try, even to this day is Islam. Joseph Smith almost a modern rival, not to mention all other current protestant denominations. And yet one could still put the RCC at the top of the list, and it started in the first century. Theology, even at it's best, is still just human opinion in addition to God's Word. Revelation had to be placed in the Canon, even if it was a future prophecy, because trying to get the church to accept it as written is hard today, even though in the Canon, and would be totally rejected if presented to the church today. Especially when there are already 3 distinct major thoughts on how it should play out, and myriads of other private renditions of interpretative thought.

Perhaps if Revelation was not in the Canon, no one would have any thoughts about the Second Coming? Still no gaurantee that any human would be accepted today as a Herald of the Second Coming. Even John the Baptist was nothing unusual, besides the fact he was unconventional, and totally side stepped the temple economy on repentance. It was his boldness to go against Herod that led to his death, not his declaration that Christ was coming, nor even his baptism. Was speaking out against Herod even part of what God led him to do? Certainly he was very specific on what Herod needed to repent of, but had Herod approached John and asked to be baptized? Being the forerunner was both announcing and practicing a type of repentance to prepare the world for the Atonement. Was the baptism of Jesus the necessary end to John's ministry or going against Herod?

So even if an Elijah came, to deliver Revelation, would how it is written even be acceptable, or really misunderstood? Would he be denounced as an anti Christ? As that is the gist of interpretation today, that any one coming in the name of Christ today, would be dismissed as an anti Christ, not to mention the harshness to 7 well known mega congregations the messages sent to them. What exactly is the message of repentance and preparation found in Revelation, and would many still declare it too symbolic and not chronological? God has given the church near 1900 years to think about the book, and still the church has no singular consensus on the message. Even to the point the rising popular opinion is that it is not even about a Second Coming nor final harvest. It is only a recap of history, or all historical and post it's meaningful application.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It would precede it like the 2nd coming would precede it. Can you point out, the fact I'm using Zechariah 14:16-19 as support for the millennium, where it even remotely depicts any of the following taking place at the time, where you said to me the following in a previous post?



Any wars are after the millennium, not during it. Only in Amil can there be wars paralleling the millennium. That is not the case with Premil, though. Plus, Premil doesn't have one single person still being deceived during the thousand years. Only Amil does.

The DOTL is in verse 1. Have a look. You then have all types of evil abounding in your millennium. Conveniently you now reduce the millennium down to Zechariah 14:16-19. Where does it mention a thousand years there. Where is all the detail of Revelation 20 in there? Nowhere! It seems like you are winging it!
 
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