Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

Are you saying there is a spiritual throne in Jerusalem and we just cannot see it? When did the angels come at the time it was set up? How does this throne interact with current reality?

His throne is in the heaven. Check repeated OT and NT Scripture. Where does it say Jesus would assume a throne in physical Jerusalem?

 

[Timtofly]

They will pay the penalty. So are you saying that some of the wicked will have already faced their eternal judgment when Jesus comes? If so, there are still 'the rest of the dead' that are raised to be judged after the 1000 years. So at the least not all the wicked/dead are judged when He returns to earth

Amil refuse to answer the part about the FP and beast thrown into the Lake of Fire "at the Cross", where they claim Revelation 20 starts. They refuse to address this verse:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are."

They also think that the FP and beast are thrown in at the same time without a 1000 year gap. They accuse Premil of stating just opinion, without any Scripture. Yet simple reading comprehension of Revelation 19 and 20 certainly does not back up their opinion.

Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire after the FP and beast were. 1000 years after. Amil refuse to acknowledge that fact. If Satan was bound during the time they were in the Lake of Fire, then they were cast into the Lake of Fire at the Cross, when Satan was allegedly bound, per Amil opinion.

But that common sense would be construed as misrepresenting Amil. Yet no verse of Scripture shows that Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire at the same time, because Satan was bound at the time they were cast into the Lake of Fire, not cast in the LoF at the same time. Literally Satan was both bound and cast into the LOF after the FP and beast were, but Amil will just say, that is your private opinion. Except it is not, it is God's Word. Their view is private opinion not found in Scripture nor even corroborated by Scripture. They lump thoughts together out of context, to make them work.

 

[DavidPT]

Amil refuse to answer the part about the FP and beast thrown into the Lake of Fire "at the Cross", where they claim Revelation 20 starts. They refuse to address this verse:

Even though Amils have Revelation 20 basically starting at the time of the cross, they don't also have Revelation 19 starting at the time of the cross as well. They have Revelation 19 meaning after the thousand years, thus, in their mind, some of Revelation 19 and Revelation 20:7-10 are parallel.

Both Premil and Amil have the beast and fp being cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming. Premil has them cast in before the thousand years. Amil has them cast in after the thousand years.

Premil would look like this---the 2nd coming--followed by the beast and fp getting cast into the LOF--followed by the thousand years--followed by satan's little season.

Amil would look like this---the thousand years---followed by satan's little season---followed by the 2nd coming--followed by the beast and fp getting cast into the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

His throne is in the heaven. Check repeated OT and NT Scripture. Where does it say Jesus would assume a throne in physical Jerusalem?

Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

This is a future event, from when Christ declared it the week of the Cross. It was still a future event in 80AD, 10 years after 70AD. It is still a future event today.

This does not say the throne comes down from heaven. It is not what He is sitting on today, nor the last 1991 years. All the holy angels come with Him.

Matthew 24:30-31

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 6:12-14

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

John was using symbolism to show the angels coming to earth. But it never says a throne comes to earth. The throne will be in the New Temple in Jerusalem. Satan does not take over the throne and temple in heaven. Satan is allowed 42 months to sit on the throne in the Temple in Jerusalem. Revelation 13:6-8

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The nations are ruled over from Jerusalem per Jesus in Matthew 25. This seat of power is given to Satan after the Second Coming, and Christ had already separated the sheep from the goats. The sheep and goats no longer physically lived on earth. Their souls already harvested and sent to their eternal destination.

There were 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders, besides the 7th Seal between the Second Coming and Satan taking over the throne in Jerusalem. Yet you want to lump this all together as the same time frame instead of rightly dividing God's Word. There will be a series of events over time, at the end of the church age. Revelation 6-20 have nothing to do with the intra-Advent period. They are the Revelation of Jesus the Christ as the Prince, with a throne in Jerusalem. Before Jesus can reign over Israel, He has to put this earth through the judgment of fire. 2 Peter 3.

He also may allow Satan control over the earth for 42 months after the Second Coming. That is not Satan's little season after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. That is Satan's 42 months to harvest the souls the church failed to gather during the first 4 Seals.

Notice the differences:

End of the intra-Advent period. The FP, the beast, Satan. The mark of the beast. People being beheaded to avoid the mark, and their removal from the Lamb's book of life. A rider on a white horse kills all of humanity at Armageddon. The FP and beast cast into the LOF 1000 years before the rest of the dead. Satan bound for 1000 years.

End of the 1000 year reign. People who knew the truth being decieved. NO mark of the beast, no beast, no FP. They have been in the LoF for 1000 years. No sitting on the throne in Jerusalem for 42 months. No beheadings. The only thing that happens is that many people march against the camp of the saints, that beloved city, from the ends of the earth, and are consumed by fire. Not even a rider on a white horse, only fire from Heaven. Only then is Satan cast into the LOF.

How can you lump these two entirely different events as the same event?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

This is a future event, from when Christ declared it the week of the Cross. It was still a future event in 80AD, 10 years after 70AD. It is still a future event today.

This does not say the throne comes down from heaven. It is not what He is sitting on today, nor the last 1991 years. All the holy angels come with Him.

Matthew 24:30-31

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 6:12-14

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

John was using symbolism to show the angels coming to earth. But it never says a throne comes to earth. The throne will be in the New Temple in Jerusalem. Satan does not take over the throne and temple in heaven. Satan is allowed 42 months to sit on the throne in the Temple in Jerusalem. Revelation 13:6-8

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The nations are ruled over from Jerusalem per Jesus in Matthew 25. This seat of power is given to Satan after the Second Coming, and Christ had already separated the sheep from the goats. The sheep and goats no longer physically lived on earth. Their souls already harvested and sent to their eternal destination.

There were 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders, besides the 7th Seal between the Second Coming and Satan taking over the throne in Jerusalem. Yet you want to lump this all together as the same time frame instead of rightly dividing God's Word. There will be a series of events over time, at the end of the church age. Revelation 6-20 have nothing to do with the intra-Advent period. They are the Revelation of Jesus the Christ as the Prince, with a throne in Jerusalem. Before Jesus can reign over Israel, He has to put this earth through the judgment of fire. 2 Peter 3.

He also may allow Satan control over the earth for 42 months after the Second Coming. That is not Satan's little season after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. That is Satan's 42 months to harvest the souls the church failed to gather during the first 4 Seals.

Notice the differences:

End of the intra-Advent period. The FP, the beast, Satan. The mark of the beast. People being beheaded to avoid the mark, and their removal from the Lamb's book of life. A rider on a white horse kills all of humanity at Armageddon. The FP and beast cast into the LOF 1000 years before the rest of the dead. Satan bound for 1000 years.

End of the 1000 year reign. People who knew the truth being decieved. NO mark of the beast, no beast, no FP. They have been in the LoF for 1000 years. No sitting on the throne in Jerusalem for 42 months. No beheadings. The only thing that happens is that many people march against the camp of the saints, that beloved city, from the ends of the earth, and are consumed by fire. Not even a rider on a white horse, only fire from Heaven. Only then is Satan cast into the LOF.

How can you lump these two entirely different events as the same event?

You did not submit biblical evidence of your claims. Please furnish us with direct evidence of what you claim.

 

[DavidPT]

End of the 1000 year reign. People who knew the truth being decieved.

This is where Premil makes far more sense. Per Amil these in question here are already deceived during the thousand years, thus don't know the truth to begin with. You then have a scenario where satan is doing mass deceiving of those already deceived.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is where Premil makes far more sense. Per Amil these in question here are already deceived during the thousand years, thus don't know the truth to begin with. You then have a scenario where satan is doing mass deceiving of those already deceived.

Please do not lecture Amils on Premil making "far more sense" when there are countless contradictions sitting on the table over the years, which you have carefully, deliberately and repeatedly ducked around. No Amil (i know) will take such claims serious.

 

[power1]

Amil refuse to answer the part about the FP and beast thrown into the Lake of Fire "at the Cross", where they claim Revelation 20 starts. They refuse to address this verse:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are."

They also think that the FP and beast are thrown in at the same time without a 1000 year gap. They accuse Premil of stating just opinion, without any Scripture. Yet simple reading comprehension of Revelation 19 and 20 certainly does not back up their opinion.

They also think that everything happens in one day apparently. I suggested that the bible clearly states when the new heavens and earth come. That is at the end of the 1000 years. If that is called the day of the Lord (how that the world will be burned up etc) and it is also called the day of the Lord when Jesus returns and just before, then the day of the Lord has to be a time period rather than a single day. No?

Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire after the FP and beast were. 1000 years after. Amil refuse to acknowledge that fact. If Satan was bound during the time they were in the Lake of Fire, then they were cast into the Lake of Fire at the Cross, when Satan was allegedly bound, per Amil opinion.

That is because they seem to imagine all things happen at once apparently. They seem to fictionalize the thousand years.

But that common sense would be construed as misrepresenting Amil. Yet no verse of Scripture shows that Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire at the same time, because Satan was bound at the time they were cast into the Lake of Fire, not cast in the LoF at the same time.

Correct

Literally Satan was both bound and cast into the LOF after the FP and beast were, but Amil will just say, that is your private opinion. Except it is not, it is God's Word. Their view is private opinion not found in Scripture nor even corroborated by Scripture. They lump thoughts together out of context, to make them work.

It does confuse people totally when they try to lump over a thousand years worth of events into a half hour when Jesus returns! What I find odd is how they want to pretend they know what they are talking about and teach others.

 

[power1]

Please do not lecture Amils on Premil making "far more sense" when there are countless contradictions sitting on the table over the years, which you have carefully, deliberately and repeatedly ducked around. No Amil (i know) will take such claims serious.

Maybe use terms that are clear to all. I don't use such terms. Obviously Jesus does return before the 1000 years, if that is the problem.

 

[Timtofly]

Even though Amils have Revelation 20 basically starting at the time of the cross, they don't also have Revelation 19 starting at the time of the cross as well. They have Revelation 19 meaning after the thousand years, thus, in their mind, some of Revelation 19 and Revelation 20:7-10 are parallel.

Both Premil and Amil have the beast and fp being cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming. Premil has them cast in before the thousand years. Amil has them cast in after the thousand years.

Premil would look like this---the 2nd coming--followed by the beast and fp getting cast into the LOF--followed by the thousand years--followed by satan's little season.

Amil would look like this---the thousand years---followed by satan's little season---followed by the 2nd coming--followed by the beast and fp getting cast into the LOF.

Except Satan was bound after the FP and beast were cast into the Lake of Fire. Amil opinion cannot place revelation 19 before Satan is bound. That is impossible.

Satan and the FP show up at Armageddon with the beast before Satan is bound. No way can Scripture be jury rigged to change that fact. Satan was not cast into the LOF at the same time. He was bound at that time. Amil need text showing the same thing in both Revelation and the Gospels. They cannot. Satan was cast out of heaven at the 7th Trumpet, not loosed from being bound. What Scripture other than Revelation 20:7 corroborate Satan being loosed after the FP and beast are cast into the LOF?

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

What Scripture other than Revelation 19 and 20 show Satan being bound at the same time the two are cast into the LOF to prove both happen at the same time? If there is no other proof, what proof is there any where else that it did not happen that way? If one declares the normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 is wrong, they have to prove their opinion from Scripture that states otherwise.

Even you point out the difference from a long restrictive chain, and literally being bound. Satan had to wait in the beginning until God actually planted a Garden, before he could decieve the sons of God created on day 6. He had to wait until Adam named all the animals. He had to wait until Eve was taken out of Adam's flesh. He probably had to wait many days before Eve got up the courage to actually pick and eat from the tree. Satan was never said to be bound at any time during the process.

Now when it literal states Satan is bound from decieving humans, Amil do not think he literally has to wait, but can keep spiritually decieving humanity and keep them bound in darkness. He is just "some what" limited. When Satan decieves, he is not being limited at all. In fact all Satan has done for 6000 years is decieved and accused humans. If Satan stopped decieving and accusing humans at the Cross, why is the risen Christ our current advocate? If Satan is bound, what makes an advocate necessary? The Nations are currently bound and under the bondage of sin. That has been the case since the sons of God made marriage contracts with Adam's flesh and blood. At the time of Moses God made a contract with Israel in the Law from Mt. Sinai. No other nation has made a contract with God, because since the Cross, God allowed individual contracts and not national ones. That is how the bondage of sin is removed, not because Satan was bound for 1000 years. Satan is spiritually hindered by individuals exercising their authority over Satan, not because Satan has been bound for 1000 years. There is plenty of Scriptural evidence of Satan being hindered or restrained, without even mentioning Revelation 20 and Satan being bound for 1000 years.

One still has to get past the fact that Satan was bound for 1000 years after the FP and beast were cast into the LOF. Because that action was the result of all 3 beings, being defeated at one singular event, and that event did not happen in the first century. Any who uses Revelation 20 to declare Satan was bound in the first century are preterist. There are no FP and beast at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. They were cast into the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the reign, not at the end. Because those resurrected at the beginning were martyred during the 42 months the FP, beast, and Satan were in charge. Amil have to also have this 42 months run concurrent with the first earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, and according to the Gospels, only John the Baptist was beheaded, so he would be resurrected to reign with Christ since 30AD, while the FP and beast are in the Lake of Fire.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

According to Amil this verse happened the week of the Cross, as that is the start of their alledged "1000 year" reign of Christ. John the Baptist is their only candidate to fit one beheaded for not taking the mark, and not worshipping the FP and the beast.

Blessed are all those who were physically resurrected, and they are still alive today in physical bodies, reigning from that camp of the saints, the beloved city, which is about to be attacked by billions of decieved humans who will then be consumed by fire. Amil cannot have the start happen in the future, even though it can only happen in the future. Nor can they say the camp of the saints is literally some place else besides on earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Maybe use terms that are clear to all. I don't use such terms. Obviously Jesus does return before the 1000 years, if that is the problem.

And why have you not been able to respond to my previous rebuttals of your position?

 

[Timtofly]

You did not submit biblical evidence of your claims. Please furnish us with direct evidence of what you claim.

You did not even address the Scripture, because your opinion would contradict God's Word.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So the goats are meeting in mid air as well?

That's not at all what I said.

So Jesus did not ascend bodily to heaven?

Again, that's not at all what I said. Do you even make any effort at all to understand what you're reading?

 

[power1]

And why have you not been able to respond to my previous rebuttals of your position?

Must have missed it. What was your main point?

 

[Timtofly]

They also think that everything happens in one day apparently. I suggested that the bible clearly states when the new heavens and earth come. That is at the end of the 1000 years. If that is called the day of the Lord (how that the world will be burned up etc) and it is also called the day of the Lord when Jesus returns and just before, then the day of the Lord has to be a time period rather than a single day. No?


That is because they seem to imagine all things happen at once apparently. They seem to fictionalize the thousand years.

Correct


It does confuse people totally when they try to lump over a thousand years worth of events into a half hour when Jesus returns! What I find odd is how they want to pretend they know what they are talking about and teach others.

They only have opinion and theory. They do not see God's Word as literal, but only symbolic of their opinion. Since a literal reading would contradict their opinion. They invoke a human opinion called recapitulation. This is not found in Scripture. It is a modern invention of human imagination.

 

[DavidPT]

Please do not lecture Amils on Premil making "far more sense" when there are countless contradictions sitting on the table over the years, which you have carefully, deliberately and repeatedly ducked around. No Amil (i know) will take such claims serious.

I have debunked Amil left and right numerous times, as others have done as well. That has to account for something.

Per Amil those that surround the city after the thousand years are meaning the masses that are already deceived during the thousand years. It makes zero sense that satan is then loosed to deceive the masses already deceived.

Premil makes more sense in this regard. These masses would know the truth during the thousand years, thus no longer deceived. You then have satan deceiving those no longer deceived, unlike Amil who has satan deceiving the masses already deceived.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Must have missed it. What was your main point?

Check out posts #1721, #1726, #1737 and #1738.

 

[DavidPT]

They only have opinion and theory. They do not see God's Word as literal, but only symbolic of their opinion. Since a literal reading would contradict their opinion. They invoke a human opinion called recapitulation. This is not found in Scripture. It is a modern invention of human imagination.

I'm Premil and even I agree that there is recapping going on in the book of Revelation. It's not just an Amil thing then. I basically disagree with some, thus not all, of what they are proposing are recaps.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have debunked Amil left and right numerous times, as others have done as well. That has to account for something.

Per Amil those that surround the city after the thousand years are meaning the masses that are already deceived during the thousand years. It makes zero sense that satan is then loosed to deceive the masses already deceived.

Premil makes more sense in this regards. These masses would know the truth during the thousand years, thus no longer deceived. You then have satan deceiving those no longer deceived, unlike Amil who has satan deceiving the masses already deceived.

I have yet to see you debunk anything in Amil. All i see is constant avoidance. That is your pattern. Pick any discussion, thread, topic on this board, and you run as soon as your position is debunked. All these rebuttals are still sitting unaddressed on the table.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They also think that everything happens in one day apparently. I suggested that the bible clearly states when the new heavens and earth come. That is at the end of the 1000 years. If that is called the day of the Lord (how that the world will be burned up etc) and it is also called the day of the Lord when Jesus returns and just before, then the day of the Lord has to be a time period rather than a single day. No?


That is because they seem to imagine all things happen at once apparently. They seem to fictionalize the thousand years.

Correct


It does confuse people totally when they try to lump over a thousand years worth of events into a half hour when Jesus returns! What I find odd is how they want to pretend they know what they are talking about and teach others.

As you well know, Amils do not fictionalize the thousand years. That is Full Preterism. They interpret it figuratively, as it is used throughout Scripture and throughout history. You fight the obvious. Premil is a zero- corroboration theory that is imposed most the most highly debated passage in the most obscure setting in Scripture. They have nothing else. Nothing! Zilch! Nada!

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?