Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

on the contrary, this has not been “overlooked”. I believe these “Minas” and “authority” refer to the gifts given by Christ for the spreading of the gospel and the building up of the church. These “Minas” to whom more will be given are secrets of the kingdom of God according to mark 13. This “authority” being the gifts given by Christ upon his as ascension in order to judge the household.

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

ephesians 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

mark 13:11-12 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away



not sure about the “occupy”, but yes, absolutely agree this refers to the intra-advert period.

and what are the faithful servants bestowed with upon the king/masters return? Does their “authority” stay the same or is it changed? And WHEN is it changed, prior to the masters return or when the master returns?

Authority over cities
Luke 19:17 17And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant!cBecause you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’

being put in charge over much more
Matthew 25:21 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.e You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.





now, this is probably your best counterpoint. You could add verses like the bridegroom “delayed” (matthew 25:5) or the master “delayed” (matthew 24:48).

however, while these “parables” mention a delayed and long time coming of Christ, the epistles demonstrate that it is untenable that this long time should be understood as thousands of years, as such contradicts the words of the apostles:

1.) Paul declared the time had been shortened and the world was passing away, and that the end of the ages had come upon them.

1 corinthians 7:29-31 this is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, 30and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, 31and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

2.) the author of Hebrews stated Christ would come in a “little” while, without delay.

Hebrews 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For, “Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him

3.) James, using a perfect tense verb stated the coming of Christ “had drawn near”

James 5:8-9 8You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

4.) and while Peter mentions scoffers in the “last days”, Peter also declared in acts, that it was the last days, in his 1st epistle, that the end of all things “had drawn near” (perfect tense).

acts 2:16-17 And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

1 Peter 4:7 7The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

5.) per John, it was the last hour:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come.




well this makes no sense. If Jesus meant thousands of years until his coming, why would cynics mock it saying “where is his coming?”

However, If the expectation was that Christ was coming literally soon, but instead it’s been thousands of years and he hasn’t shown up, then yes, cynics scoffing “where is his coming?” Makes sense.



and such Amil belief, that the millennium consists of thousands of years prior to the coming of Christ, is contradicting to the words of the apostles, which demonstrated they believed it had literally drawn near and would occur literally in a little while.

Before I answer this, can you clarify?

1. When (time-wise) was Satan cast out of heaven to war against the saints (revelation 12:12)?
2. When (time-wise) was Satan hindering the gospel to the nations (2 Thessalonians 2:18), masquerading as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), Satan prowling and looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8), Satan leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15), working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1), etc?
3. When (time-wise) is sin no longer able to draw power from the law?
4. When (time-wise) is Satan crushed?

 

[Timtofly]

Ha
If there was , then those offspring produced in that time would still be alive and have no need of Jesus sacrifice.

God did say ..go forth and multiply and fill the earth on day 6. Safely say they were keen to obey this commandment without delay.

No, all rebelled by the time Noah was born. Are you saying perfect humanity cannot sin, or rebel?

Adam and Eve did. Why would they be the only perfect ones, not to sin or rebel?

The verse says only Noah was righteous. The rest of the world had allowed sin to control them.

"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

Noah was the only human left to hear and obey God.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Those created on the 6th day surely filled the earth, but after 1500 years, they all were wicked and full of sin. Not that they were created to sin, or be sinners. But only one of them, Adam, allowed sin into the world.

 

[DavidPT]

Those created on the 6th day

What are you meaning by this so that I'm on the same page with you? Are you only meaning Adam and Eve or are you meaning God created more ppl than just those two?

 

[Timtofly]

You seem to overlook what the Lord taught in Matthew 25:14: “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

We find parallel accounts in Mark 13 and Luke 19. In Mark’s account we learn: “For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch” (Mark 13:34).

In Luke 19:12-13 we read: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.”

As we piece these 3 accounts together we grasp the fulness of the whole parable. Here Christ is speaking of the intra-Advent period. He is talking about the kingdom authority that was delegated to God’s people during the intra-Advent period. These servants were given “authority” and ordered to “Occupy till I come.”

He continues in Matthew 25:19-30: “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Here is a symbolic picture of the final judgment that occurs at the all-consummating return of Jesus. This comes after a long protracted period where their service would be accounted.

Jesus taught us that the gap between His first and second comings would be so long it would result in the scoffing of the ungodly. Diligence and patience would be required from the redeemed.

Does the Bible contradict itself? Why in places in the New Testament does it present the coming of the Lord as “at hand,” “near” or coming “quickly” or “shortly” while in other places it is presented as “after a long time”? In fact, the duration of the intra-Advent period is so long that the religious cynics mock the reality and realization of the second coming. Jesus details their contempt in Matthew 24:48: “My lord delayeth his coming.” Peter similarly records their derision: “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” Clearly, the wait was long in human terms! Clearly, it did not occur in a short time in human terms! The supposed delay causes the “fellowservants” in the parable of Christ to carelessly” eat and drink with the drunken.”

We are constantly exhorted through the teaching of Christ and the New Testament writers to “watch” and be “ready” for Jesus’ climatic return when He will raise and judge mankind. It is only then where mankind will be apportioned their just and final reward.

Amils believe that Revelation 20 describes the intra-Advent period. This indeed is a long indefinite period in between the first coming and second coming of Jesus. They believe that thousand years is a long extended figurative period that will be followed by a season of final persecution before the end.

This all negates the Preterist paradigm that is fixated with the coming of Titus in AD70.

Or these parables were directed at the current religious system, and the end was the first Advent, as the Cross, was the return of God to exact the reward and judge how Israel had obeyed, or disobeyed their covenant given by Moses. The Covenant that concluded with those 70 sets of sevens.

The same 70 sets many claim fulfilled, but are not, because Israel has yet to acknowledge the Son as Prince. So far they have only accomplished the "killing" of the Son part.

Why would these parables be addressed to the church? As pointed out, the church does not need parables, but rebellious Israel did. Unless the church is now in the same position of rebellious Israel, and both need signs and figurative words of admonition? Signs were given for correction. Not for some to add human imagination into God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

The ordinances of the Sun, moon, and stars are defined in Genesis 1:14-18. They are for seasons, days, and years. If there is a gap between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week then God stopped using His own ordinance or put another way He removed that ordinance from before Him. Also 2 Peter 3:8 would indicate that the ordinance was removed at some point in time because one day is not one day, it’s as a 1,000 years.

As far as heaven being measured Revelation 21:16 gives us the measurement, its 12,000 furlongs, with the length, breadth, and height all being the same.

That is not the measurement of heaven. That is the measurement of Paradise also known as the New Jerusalem. It is a start, but what percentage of reality is the NJ?

 

[Timtofly]

Are you not reading that verse carefully? It clearly says that Christ Himself had become the firstfruits (of them that slept). It is not saying that "them that slept" are the firstfruits, it's saying that Christ Himself is the firstfruits of them that slept. You're apparently allowing doctrinal bias to affect your interpretation of that verse.

Does not the phrase "that slept" indicate they no longer sleep. They were no longer dead, when Paul wrote the verse. They had been resurrected with Christ, not in Christ. The church alive on earth as ambassadors is in Christ, not with Christ.

You will not be with Christ until your resurrection. You do not taste death at all. Though you clearly are willing to die and sleep until a future point in time, when clearly that is impossible.

The dead in Christ are who exactly. Those currently with Christ or those in Christ? Once one is spiritually born, when do they spiritually die?

 

[Timtofly]

That is not what it says! It says He is the firstfruits, not that He is one of the firstfruits. Stop twisting scripture to fit your doctrine.

How is DavidPT twisting it? He accepts one can loose their spiritual/second birth. He claims one can stop being a firstfruit. Do you think no human can be a firstfruit until after the 1000 years in Revelation 20?

Is being a firstfruit one physically born or spiritually born? Could one be spiritually born from above prior to the Cross? Is no one spiritually born until the Second Coming? I mean that is twisting the Scriptures to make the first resurrection the second birth or the second birth the first resurrection, no?

What exactly is this firstfruits if not the Second birth or spiritual birth into the family of God? Why was Christ the only one born into the family of God, especially if He was born into God's family at physical birth in His case, as Jesus was the Word (God) Who became flesh. His birth placed Him into Adam's family, without sin of course. It did not place Him into God's family, He never stopped being God. That never changed during the death, burial, and resurrection. The firstfruits were all the OT redeemed, as that was Paul's point, not that the point was about Christ being the only firstfruit. Much less singled out as a firstfruit. It is plural because it was not about Christ, it was about, "every man in his own order". No one was redeemed without Christ. That is why Christ is the reason for "every man in his own order". Christ is doing all the work. Humans are the resulting fruit.

 

[Timtofly]

I couldn't agree more. Another thing that occurs to me about the Revelation 10:5-7 passage is that it says "the mystery of God should be finished" at the seventh trumpet. Does it really make sense that 1,000 more years of history plus Satan's little season would follow the mystery of God being finished? What would actually be finished at the seventh trumpet in that case? Not much. In the Amil view, a lot of things will be finished at that point including sin, death, pain, crying, sorrow, etc. To Amils the mystery of God will truly be finished at the seventh trumpet. There will be no more mysteries at that point. Everything will be made known and secrets will be revealed.

This mystery being finished is the 70 weeks of Daniel. If you claim the 70 weeks were finished in the first century, that would make you a full preterist, at least according to Scripture and your claim that was the end. Many here claim the 70 weeks are not finished and claiming they are is date setting and thus full preterism.

What other mystery could there be yet to be concluded at a future point in time? If you say the mystery is that of the Second Coming itself, then why reject the claim Jesus is the 70th week? Obviously His first coming was still a mystery and the Jews of the first century rejected it altogether. The first half of the week was as Messiah. The last half will be as Prince. Which means the 70th week is not finished, nor was finished at all in the first century. The Second Coming is as Prince, and no getting around the fact that indeed the Second Coming is the completion of the 70th week, and it was not completed in the first century. Unless you can prove the Second Coming is not as Prince, you are contradicting your point the 70th week has already been fulfilled.

Of course your work around is that it has been 1991 years of a second coming, which is not creating an intra-Advent period. It is just a very long second coming. If any one claims an intra-Advent period they are splitting the 70th week into two parts with an "intra-Advent period". They cannot say it is finished while at the same time say it is not finished. Being a partial preterist is nonsense when it comes to the 70th week. I do not see how a full 7 years is yet to come, when Jesus already spent 3.5 years on earth as the Messiah. Anointed at His baptism, and accomplishing the Atonement 3.5 years later. Claiming He finished the 7 years then as Prince in the first century is preterist and full preterism. Of course many will deny that. They want the best of two opposing views, even if a blatant contradiction.

The end is then enjoying the fruit of those 70 weeks, for a literal 1000 years. Another point that amil deny. They want to force the enjoyment into the alledged intra-Advent period, before the 70 weeks are even accomplished. Then deny their own intra-Advent period claiming it was complete in the first century. Either there is an intra-Advent period or one is a full preterist and the 70 weeks have been complete for 1980+ years. One cannot have it both ways.

 

[DavidPT]

How is DavidPT twisting it? He accepts one can loose their spiritual/second birth. He claims one can stop being a firstfruit. Do you think no human can be a firstfruit until after the 1000 years in Revelation 20?

How did my name get involved in that? I was never a part of that discussion. At least I don't recall taking part in that discussion.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What are you meaning by this so that I'm on the same page with you? Are you only meaning Adam and Eve or are you meaning God created more ppl than just those two?

It is so predictable when your position is exposed that you divert onto unrelated issues. You have done that for years. Please address the issues in #1380. It seems like the only Scripture that really matters to you in the Bible is Revelation 20.

 

[DavidPT]

It is so predictable when your position is exposed that you divert onto unrelated issues. You have done that for years. Please address the issues in #1380. It seems like the only Scripture that really matters to you in the Bible is Revelation 20.

I was only asking him that out of curiosity, not to debate it with him in here. Actually I just started a thread in Contro involving that very subject not long afterwards since I have other Biblical interests besides this debate involving the thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

Agree. It seems to me that Premils completely overlook or ignore Revelation 11:18. It indicates that at the seventh trumpet it will be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Isn't it clear that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season (Revelation 20:11-15)? I believe so. That means the seventh trumpet will sound AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season.

You have the wrong type of dead. This is the end and judgment on those dead corruptible flesh bodies in Adam's flesh and blood image. Meaning the current almost 8 billion humans alive today. Their judgment is completed at the 7th Trumpet.

"And the nations (not dead souls) were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead (Adam's flesh and blood still alive), that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets (the church in Paradise), and to the saints, and them (those resurrected on earth for the still to come 1000 year reign) that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (those currently alive destroying earth, the Nations).

 

[DavidPT]

It is so predictable when your position is exposed that you divert onto unrelated issues. You have done that for years. Please address the issues in #1380. It seems like the only Scripture that really matters to you in the Bible is Revelation 20.

BTW, it is the Amil position getting exposed, the fact that position has billions of ppl already being deceived during the thousand years when satan is in the pit so that he should deceive the nations no longer. We're not just talking about a handful of ppl being deceived during the thousand years. Revelation 20:8 is perhaps meaning billions of ppl, and that Amil has them living during the last days of the thousand years already deceived before satan is loosed in order to deceive them. But let's just ignore any of that, though.

 

[Timtofly]

Agreed. Look at 1 Corinthians 13:9-12: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then [Gr. tote] that which is in part shall be done away … For now [Gr. arti] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [Gr. tote] face to face: now [Gr. arti] I know in part; but then [Gr. tote] shall I know even as also I am known.”

Where ever you look in the New Testament you see this two-age-model at work. Various comparable phrases are employed to divide “this age” from “the age to come.”

Today:

(1) We know in part
(2) We see through a glass, darkly

Then (face to face):

(1) “That which is in part shall be done away”
(2) “when that which is perfect is come … then shall I know even as also I am known.”

We can therefore clearly assume that this is no minor insignificant occasion, but some glorious all-consummating event. It is of such a monumental magnitude that its arrival ensures “the mystery of God should be finished.” Moreover, its appearance also finally brings about “that there should be time no longer.”

Undoubtedly, there is only one significant impending event that is repeatedly advanced in Scripture that causes the final termination of the plan and purpose of God for “time,” and which concludes the mystery of God forever, namely the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ. This event sees the conclusion of the plan of God and the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgment. It is undoubtedly an all-consummating event.

Was not the Flood of Noah's day, and all consummating event? It literal destroyed the old earth as Peter put it.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now."

There was a new heavens and earth after the Flood different from the "now" heavens and earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Your beliefs hang solely upon the thin thread that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. Take that away, and Premillennialism falls apart. Yet you claim the NHNE arrive at the second coming. Well, that comes after the millennium is over. There also your argument falls apart.

The $64 million question is: where is your corroboration for your opinion of Revelation 20? Nowhere. The reality is: Premi is totally non-corroborative. If you (or any Premil) had corroboration it would be presented before now. But we who have been on these boards for years know it does not exist.

Are you saying Noah demanded corroboration that life would go on after he entered the ark?

You look for corroboration instead of faith. Revelation 20 was witnessed by one man John. You declare his witness null and void, and state he was wrong on his timing and rely on human understanding and imagination called recap. No faith necessary to those demanding corroboration.

 

[Timtofly]

The result is the final, all-out assault upon the Church and her living, faithful members.

Where is your corroboration of this event?

 

[grafted branch]

That is not the measurement of heaven. That is the measurement of Paradise also known as the New Jerusalem. It is a start, but what percentage of reality is the NJ?

Even if you disagree that heaven was measured, you still have the problem of the ordinances of the sun, moon, and star’s departing from before God in Jeremiah 31:36. There is no need <5532> or business of the sun and moon in Revelation 21:23.

So Jeremiah 31:36 can’t be a statement that simply means Israel will always be considered a nation before God (as some would have us believe); it’s a statement that when we come to New Jerusalem, Israel will no longer be considered a nation because the ordinances are not used, they have been removed, there shall be no night.

Hebrews 12:22 says we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I was only asking him that out of curiosity, not to debate it with him in here. Actually I just started a thread in Contro involving that very subject not long afterwards since I have other Biblical interests besides this debate involving the thousand years.

You have a habit (for years) of opting out of debates when your position is shown to be untenable. It does nothing for the veracity of your argument. It is hard therefore to take what you say serious when you run every time your position is exposed.

 

[Timtofly]

I understand what you are saying. As you know I do not believe and have never believed that Satan was bound at Calvary. He was utterly and totally defeated at Calvary, but he has been deceiving the nations ever since (and even the church where he can), so his binding is not yet.

The problem comes with this:

You admitted that you also see the NHNE as immediately following the return of Christ when I mentioned what I saw in the Revelation which suggests that it does.

But here's the problem: If the "thousand years" (+ its close) takes place in the NHNE (i.e if the NHNE and the "thousand years" follows immediately after the return of Christ), then the thousand years cannot be literal, because such a thing as a thousand literal years is impossible in eternity (How long is "a thousand years" in eternity, or what percentage of eternity is it? Is it 0.00000000........000000000000001% of eternity? If not, then what fraction of eternity is it?)

"A fraction of eternity" is meaningless, because it cannot be measured and the moment you divide eternity into "a fraction of eternity" + "the rest of eternity" you no longer have eternity, but time.

So if the NHNE follows immediately after the return of Christ and the "thousand years" follows the return of Christ, then the "thousand years" cannot be literal.

All this is a big problem if our theory (regarding the NHNE and the thousand years both following immediately after the return of Christ) were true, because then we will have Satan deceiving the nations in eternity after having been bound for a symbolic "thousand years" in eternity (because a literal "thousand years" in eternity is an oxymoron).

How can something created be eternity?

Are you asserting the NHNE have always been, even before Genesis 1?

That is the error of viewing the NHNE as eternity. It is not. It is still a created physical reality, yet different from this current physical reality. It has yet to be created. If it was already created, it is not new, it has always been. Eternity cannot be created at all, nor can be new. It always is with no beginning and end. That is a fact barely grasped, as most think the NHNE is not new, but always existed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

BTW, it is the Amil position getting exposed, the fact that position has billions of ppl already being deceived during the thousand years when satan is in the pit so that he should deceive the nations no longer. We're not just talking about a handful of ppl being deceived during the thousand years. Revelation 20:8 is perhaps meaning billions of ppl, and that Amil has them living during the last days of the thousand years already deceived before satan is loosed in order to deceive them. But let's just ignore any of that, though.

Again, you totally ignore each point and Scripture I presented as it exposes your reasoning. That is why many have abandoned it on these boards over the years.

You refuse to accept that this is talking about the Gentiles as a whole who are now no longer deceived through the great commission. The Gospel has spread and prospered throughout the nations for 2000 years. You repeatedly rubbish the success of the great commission.