Was Adam indwelled by the Holy Spirit before the fall?

[Carl Emerson]

Not according to the Covenant Theology of the Reformation. In the Reformed view, the "church" technically refers to all born-again believers in both testaments, saved by the Inward Witness of the Holy Spirit (the indwelling Holy Spirit) who helps stir up faith in Christ. Which is my position as well.

You are welcome to your theology, there are many theologies represented here of course. Lets get back on topic...

Do you think Adam was indwelled with and baptised in the Spirit?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes you can and should pray for Elijah-level blessings, Moses-level blessings, and so on.

Doesn't mean you are already on that level! That's all I'm saying.

I have tasted revival back in the seventies - during that time all sorts of wonderful gifts were being 'switched on' to fulfil His purpose.

I expect revival to return - I have seen a turbulant river running through our church as have several others.

 

[JAL]

I have tasted revival back in the seventies - during that time all sorts of wonderful gifts were being 'switched on' to fulfil His purpose.

I expect revival to return - I have seen a turbulant river running through our church as have several others.

God is reluctant to send reviving outpourings because such would seem to be a divine stamp of approval on today's "churches". Those "churches" represent 2,000 years of man-made traditions!

Why would you assume that your institution is a bona fide NT church? You don't KNOW that (infallibly) - it's more likely a man-made institution comprised of man-made traditions. Until these "churches" repent of pretending to KNOW stuff, you can probably forget about revival. Not much chance, since God doesn't much approve of men's "strange fire".

 

[bling]

You are welcome to your theology, there are many theologies represented here of course. Lets get back on topic...

Do you think Adam was indwelled with and baptised in the Spirit?

I explained in my previous post "No" Adam did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit or he would have been kept from sinning. If keeping from this one way to sin was God's objective a fence to tall to climb could have been erected.

 

[Carl Emerson]

God is reluctant to send reviving outpourings because such would seem to be a divine stamp of approval on today's "churches".

Not so...

He moves despite the imperfections - matters are resolved in His wake.

Anyway this is way off topic.

Maybe a good topic for another thread?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I explained in my previous post "No" Adam did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit or he would have been kept from sinning. If keeping from this one way to sin was God's objective a fence to tall to climb could have been erected.

Yes I noted that thanks, my question was addressed to JAL..

 

[JAL]

Do you think Adam was indwelled with and baptised in the Spirit?

I"m not in full agreement with how charismatics use the term "baptism in the Spirit".

The divine Word outpours as efficacious grace, that is, to immediately DO something and then return to God (Is 55:11), NOT to lie dormant waiting for us to activate Him "by faith".


The upshot, in my opinion, is two different types of anointing.

(1) Reneration/Sanctification. It makes your heart holy efficaciously. No one, except maybe Christ, has been ENTIRELY Spirit-filled in this life as it would mean perfection. Even Adam was partially filled and was supposed to mature. This type of anointing is long-lasting, tends to be permanent, because sanctification is a job never completed.

(2) Charismatic anointings last for the hour of need (they do not lie dormant) and then return to God. Again, see Isa 55:11. Even Jesus isn't RECORDED to receive His prophetic/charismatic anointing until the age of 30 !!!! (Put that in your pipe and smoke it). Chances are, though, He probably did receive low-level prophetic/charismatic anointings prior to then, being who He was.

Pentecost was a MASSIVE revival - the outpouring of a high-level prophetic/charismatic anointing among 120 believers at once. Or at least the apostles received it at high-level. Basically it's like Elijah spawning 12 Elisha's at once! But again, it's a REPEATING anointing (it only lasts for the hour of need, for example whenever Samson needed stength). Generally it must be re-received daily via prayer and fasting (Luk 11:13).

And it has NOTHING to do with speaking in tongues. The "gift of tongues" is mentioned in 1Cor 14 but is NOT mentioned in Acts. Acts is strictly dealing with the prophetic anointing of the prophets, as Tertullian warned back in 200 AD. The "gift of tongues" (1Cor 14) requires interpreters not found in Acts. Rather the apostles in Acts spoke DIRECTLY in the languages ("tongues") of the audience, via the power of Spirit-inspired speech.

Yes Adam was (partially) Spirit-filled, probably lost it when he sinned, and probably regained it (some of it anyway) when God called him to repent unto saving faith, due to the Abrahamic Covenant (which predated Abraham because it's the Father-Son covenant per Gal 3:16).

 

[JAL]

Not so...

He moves despite the imperfections - matters are resolved in His wake.

How do you KNOW that? Are you infallible? Like most people, you are making assumptions. With potentially 100 billion souls are at stake, your glib assumptions could leave them lost.

The only people who KNEW stuff were the prophets, which is why Paul puts prophecy at the top of our agenda alongside love (1 Cor 14:1).

"Pastors" (if you really want to call them that) need to stop LYING about what they know. They don't know anything at all. They just have mere opinions, like me. God is not likely to revive a BUNCH OF LIARS. Can't we agree on that much?

I'm not saying He WON'T do it - He is merciful - I'm just saying He is not LIKELY to do it.

 

[JAL]

Not so...

He moves despite the imperfections - matters are resolved in His wake.

God just happily sits back and accepts men committed to 2,000 years of man-made traditions? Seriously? Have you ever actually read the passage about strange fire?

"Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. 2So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord."

 

[Carl Emerson]

How do you KNOW that? Are you infallible? Like most people, you are making assumptions. With potentially 100 billion souls are at stake, your glib assumptions could leave them lost.

The only people who KNEW stuff were the prophets, which is why Paul puts prophecy at the top of our agenda alongside love (1 Cor 14:1).

"Pastors" (if you really want to call them that) need to stop LYING about what they know. They don't know anything at all. They just have mere opinions, like me. God is not likely to revive a BUNCH OF LIARS. Can't we agree on that much?

I'm not saying He WON'T do it - He is merciful - I'm just saying He is not LIKELY to do it.

When the revival hit in the 70's our church exploded, leaders from different churches worked side by side with a common focus on the lost.

We saw spontaneous healings among at risk inner city folk - I have seen too much to doubt His work.

It is easy to discredit anything claimed to be spiritual - it is harder to walk in His obedience and witness His confirming signs.

And it continues - we have witnessed two dramatic healings from cancer this year one a member on CF.

 

[JAL]

When the revival hit in the 70's our church exploded, leaders from different churches worked side by side with a common focus on the lost.

We saw spontaneous healings among at risk inner city folk - I have seen too much to doubt His work.

It is easy to discredit anything claimed to be spiritual - it is harder to walk in His obedience and witness His confirming signs.

And it continues - we have witnessed two dramatic healings from cancer this year one a member on CF.

No one told you to doubt His work. I'm just reminding you that revival has been pretty rare historically, and warning you that, in light of that fact, it is not safe to glibly walk in assumptions, intellectual dishonesty, and man-made traditions.

 

[JAL]

And it continues - we have witnessed two dramatic healings from cancer this year one a member on CF.

Ok probably 5 million people have died from Covid-19 alone, not to mention heart disease, cancer, and all the other illnesses. You have seen a handful of healings and call it revival? By what standards? You don't see that your low standard is itself an insult to God that, as such, further HINDERS revival? You're making Him out to be stingy!

This is what happens when we pretend to KNOW stuff.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Hey, I like the way you described that...

Touch and agree...

Best to celebrate what we do agree on, but at the same time it is good to share reflections on the treasure which is His Word.

Going back to Genesis 9:.

Which translation of scripture did you post? I think it does not really matter, but sometimes it does affect our understanding.
In the NIV Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

We agree that God made man in His image. Man was MADE perfectly like God. Well what happened when Adam fell marred that perfection. Man became a sinner. He was not MADE a sinner by God, but he became a sinner by disobedience. Do you see that? Man is a sinner, God is not. Noah as Adam's offspring in his likeness was a sinner. Now he found grace in God's eyes and God saved him from the flood.

I often say that satan made Eve doubt her identity. She was already like God in His image. But satan made her want to be something she already was...like God.
Gen. 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Personally, I think the fall was more catastrophic than we could ever imagine in our time since we are so far removed from the event. And scripture does not exactly spell it out for us. So we are left to speculation and putting it together like pieces of a puzzle. I like what you said about holding some things loosely, especially when scripture is not clear.

Now think about this. The human body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Just consider my point for a moment.
From NIV
1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

The scripture says we are fearfully and wonderfully MADE.
Psalm 139:14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psalm 8:5
You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

There is a story in Ezekiel 10 where th Glory of God departed from the temple.
Ezek. 10:18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim.

This in my understanding is an example of the glory departing from Adam. I can hold this loosely as you suggested. But it just makes sense to me.

Blessings and peace

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ok probably 5 million people have died from Covid-19 alone, not to mention heart disease, cancer, and all the other illnesses. You have seen a handful of healings and call it revival? By what standards? You don't see that your low standard is itself an insult to God that, as such, further HINDERS revival? You're making Him out to be stingy!

This is what happens when we pretend to KNOW stuff.

Really ???

When did I say we are in revival ???

Back in the 70's we saw a serious outpouring of God's grace.

There is more to come.

 

[JAL]

Really ???

When did I say we are in revival ???

Back in the 70's we saw a serious outpouring of God's grace.

There is more to come.

Where did I say that's what you said?

 

[Carl Emerson]

You have seen a handful of healings and call it revival?

Right there...

 

[JAL]

Right there...

Misreading on your part. I'm not aware of any super-abundance of healings in the 70's. Therefore you've only seen a handful at most. YOU called it a period of revival.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Which translation of scripture did you post? I think it does not really matter, but sometimes it does affect our understanding.
In the NIV Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

We agree that God made man in His image. Man was MADE perfectly like God. Well what happened when Adam fell marred that perfection. Man became a sinner. He was not MADE a sinner by God, but he became a sinner by disobedience. Do you see that? Man is a sinner, God is not. Noah as Adam's offspring in his likeness was a sinner. Now he found grace in God's eyes and God saved him from the flood.

I often say that satan made Eve doubt her identity. She was already like God in His image. But satan made her want to be something she already was...like God.
Gen. 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Personally, I think the fall was more catastrophic than we could ever imagine in our time since we are so far removed from the event. And scripture does not exactly spell it out for us. So we are left to speculation and putting it together like pieces of a puzzle. I like what you said about holding some things loosely, especially when scripture is not clear.

Now think about this. The human body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Just consider my point for a moment.
From NIV
1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

The scripture says we are fearfully and wonderfully MADE.
Psalm 139:14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psalm 8:5
You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

There is a story in Ezekiel 10 where th Glory of God departed from the temple.
Ezek. 10:18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim.

This in my understanding is an example of the glory departing from Adam. I can hold this loosely as you suggested. But it just makes sense to me.

Blessings and peace

Thank for the response - I usually use NASB, now falling apart, purchased mid 70's - but find Bible Gateway online pretty quick and easy.

Thanks for your contribution.

 

[JAL]

Back in the 70's we saw a serious outpouring of God's grace.

50 years ago? That was the last time you saw revival? And yet you seem reluctant to take my warnings seriously? You haven't so much as ACKNOWLEDGED my warnings to be worth considering. Every response of yours is a rebuttal attempting to show me off-base.

Let's understand the irony of your rebuttals.
(1) First, my claim SEEMS to be a tautology. Here it is again. Are Christians today infallible? No. Then they should stop pretending to KNOW stuff! (How could this apparent tautology be off-base?).
(2) Second, you CLAIM to be a teachable man - 1 or 2 days back I read a post of yours where you CLAIMED to be a teachable man quick to admit any errors exposed of you. When I read it, back then, I practically guffawed. I didn't believe it for one second and, here on this thread, you seem to be confirming my suspicions because here - like on all threads of mine where you posted - it's hard to find any evidence of teachability in you.

Almost every Christian who believes himself teachable is, in my experience, kidding himself. What makes it worse is when such a Christian openly CLAIMS to be teachable, as you did.

Not that I'm particularly teachable either. But if we want revival, we need to be HONEST with God about the fact that, historically, most of us Christians have been FAKES and LIARS. We need to repent and KEEP REPENTING daily. That's my point.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Misreading on your part. I'm not aware of any super-abundance of healings in the 70's. Therefore you've only seen a handful at most. YOU called it a period of revival.

OK got it...

We have different definitions of revival I guess.

I guess we should rejoice in the degree of revival we have enjoyed and encourage one another.

Our church went from about 100 to 450 in months, folks were hanging out the windows of the original old building. Conversion growth spiked.

But my focus was co-running a 24 hour inner city ministry at the time and we took over two floors of a building and ran it by faith with a donation box on the wall. A prostitutes room became our chapel in which many were healed. We also ran an open home.

I suspect you only use the term revival when the move of God is so strong that folks are on their knees in the streets.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.