Was Adam indwelled by the Holy Spirit before the fall?

[Carl Emerson]

Are they working today? Do people who are filled with the Holy Spirit still sin?

Not to the extent of falling away permanently as Jeremiah predicted.

 

[JAL]

Since you mention dispensationalists, I presume you are aware of their framework for scripture interpretation?

To answer your specific questions

1. Gentiles like us are saved under the gospel given to Paul by the ascended Christ. So our doctrine is to be taken from Romans to Philemon. Of course, that does not mean we cannot learn from other parts of the Bible.
2. The New Covenant was offered to Israel by Peter and the other 11 during early Acts. But by Acts 7, Israel leaders chose to stone Stephen instead, so the New covenant could not begin for them. Currently the nation of Israel has fallen, but good news for us gentiles is that, thru that fall, we gentiles are now offered salvation without Israel (Romans 11:11), thru being in the Body of Christ.

Hyperdispensationalism.

Gentiles like us are saved under the gospel given to Paul by the ascended Christ. So our doctrine is to be taken from Romans to Philemon. Of course, that does not mean we cannot learn from other parts of the Bible.

Gospel was given to Paul? Christ gave it to Abraham, and, according to Gal 3 and Rom 4, it was salvation by faith alone. Especially Gal 3 emphasizes that even Mosaic law did not interrupt the ongoing Abrahamic covenant of faith.

Examples that the gospel is nothing new (because the cross is retroactive to all OT saints):

"Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith" (Gal 3)

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them" (Heb 4:2)

Salvation has never been by good works. It is by the cross. This means that OT and NT saints - since they both get the same cross - HAD to operate under the same dispensation of grace, the same Covenant.

The New Covenant was offered to Israel by Peter and the other 11 during early Acts. But by Acts 7, Israel leaders chose to stone Stephen instead, so the New covenant could not begin for them.

Peter? In the Book of Acts neither Peter nor anyone else has much to say about a New Covenant. Your words seem to be a theological construct fabricated by your own theological presuppositions. I don't see much basis for concluding that your position is a fact of Scripture.

The Book of Acts DOES mention the ongoing Abrahamic Promise/Covenant, as I seem to recall.

 

[disciple Clint]

Not to the extent of falling away permanently as Jeremiah predicted.

So are we sealed against sin? I do not see it if we are.

 

[JAL]

Can you then explain why Jesus said...

John 14:
16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

Fair question. Personally I think Greek verb tenses are confusing. For example some translations say that He already "is in you" instead of "will be in you." At any rate, the disciples knew Jesus for three years. What exactly did they know? Just an ordinary man? No. What they SAW and KNEW was the Holy Spirit because Jesus walked as a VESSEL showing forth the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Thus they didn't really know Jesus as their best friend/companion (to speak loosely), they knew the HOLY SPIRIT as their best friend/companion, specifically a (prophethood) Anointing of the highest magnitude which was NOT yet in them, until Pentecost.

And it's not in you either, unless you think you're some kind of Elijah. You have the Spirit of regeneration, as do I, but neither of us, I'm pretty sure, have the sort of Counselor-style anointing given to the apostles on Pentecost. All of us should aspire to, i.e. pray for, that level of anointing.

 

[Guojing]

Hyperdispensationalism.


Gospel was given to Paul? Christ gave it to Abraham, and, according to Gal 3 and Rom 4, it was salvation by faith alone. Especially Gal 3 emphasizes that even Mosaic law did not interrupt the ongoing Abrahamic covenant of faith.

Examples that the gospel is nothing new (because the cross is retroactive to all OT saints):

"Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith" (Gal 3)

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them" (Heb 4:2)

Salvation has never been by good works. It is by the cross. This means that OT and NT saints - since they both get the same cross - HAD to operate under the same dispensation of grace, the same Covenant.



Peter? In the Book of Acts neither Peter nor anyone else has much to say about a New Covenant. Your words seem to be a theological construct fabricated by your own theological presuppositions. I don't see much basis for concluding that your position is a fact of Scripture.

The Book of Acts DOES mention the ongoing Abrahamic Promise/Covenant, as I seem to recall.

For Israel to come under the new covenant, they have to repent of killing their messiah, and be water baptized.

Would you agree with that?

Did the leaders of Israel ever do that? What did they do instead at acts 7?

 

[Carl Emerson]

So are we sealed against sin? I do not see it if we are.

By the indwelling Spirit of he Fear of the Lord we are sealed against renouncing our faith - this is not a matter of never sinning, but it does seal us against any sin that would threaten our salvation.

 

[disciple Clint]

By the indwelling Spirit of he Fear of the Lord we are sealed against renouncing our faith - this is not a matter of never sinning, but it does seal us against any sin that would threaten our salvation.

That sounds good but when we try to apply it to what we see happening in real life or try to support it with Scripture is simply does not hold up.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Fair question. Personally I think Greek verb tenses are confusing. For example some translations say that He already "is in you" instead of "will be in you." At any rate, the disciples knew Jesus for three years. What exactly did they know? Just an ordinary man? No. What they SAW and KNEW was the Holy Spirit because Jesus walked as a VESSEL showing forth the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Thus they didn't really know Jesus as their best friend/companion (to speak loosely), they knew the HOLY SPIRIT as their best friend/companion, specifically a (prophethood) Anointing of the highest magnitude which was NOT yet in them, until Pentecost.

And it's not in you either, unless you think you're some kind of Elijah. You have the Spirit of regeneration, as do I, but neither of us, I'm pretty sure, have the sort of Counselor-style anointing given to the apostles on Pentecost. All of us should aspire to, i.e. pray for, that level of anointing.

I believe they received the indwelling presence, as promised, after the resurrection when He breathed on them and said 'receive the Holy Spirit'.

It is also recorded that we have the nature of Elijah.

If interested you can read some of my testimony here...

Jesus's Ministry

 

[Carl Emerson]

That sounds good but when we try to apply it to what we see happening in real life or try to support it with Scripture is simply does not hold up.

Well I read nothing but scripture for over 5 years - nothing else.

I have no issue supporting my position.

 

[JAL]

For Israel to come under the new covenant, they have to repent of killing their messiah, and be water baptized.

Would you agree with that?

Did the leaders of Israel ever do that? What did they do instead at acts 7?

As mentioned earlier, Israel's New Covenant isn't in effect until the eschaton. In that covenant, Israel can't backslide anymore due to the writing of the law on their hearts. Which means perfection.

Any Israelite can become a member of the Abrahamic covenant by repentance and saving faith. Water baptism has never been mandatory for salvation.

 

[JAL]

I believe they received the indwelling presence, as promised, after the resurrection when He breathed on them and said 'receive the Holy Spirit'.

It is also recorded that we have the nature of Elijah.

If interested you can read some of my testimony here...

Jesus's Ministry

Please don't try to tell me that NT saints received a critical blessing absent from OT saints. We all get the same cross, hence all the MAIN blessings must be the same. There can be MINOR, circumstantial differences such as financial prosperity-differences between the nation Israel versus other nations.

 

[JAL]

It is also recorded that we have the nature of Elijah.

If you place yourself on a par with Elijah, you either don't fully understand who he was, or you have an overly inflated view of yourself. It's like regarding yourself as spiritually mature/advanced as Moses who spoke with God face to face on a daily basis. Take a look at Num 12:6-8. God is clear that regular prophets paled in comparison to Moses. And you? I'm pretty sure you are not even a regular prophet!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Please don't try to tell me that NT saints received a critical blessing absent from OT saints. We all get the same cross, hence all the MAIN blessings must be the same. There can be MINOR, circumstantial differences such as financial prosperity-differences between the nation Israel versus other nations.

Well John the Baptist, the greatest OT saint, was told to recognise the Messiah as being the only one upon whom the Spirit would come upon and remain upon. Otherwise he would not have known who the Messiah was.
OT saints received a touch of the Spirit, Who would then leave.

So yes when Jesus came the ball game changed and the promised indwelling presence was given and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was first given to Jesus, then the Church as a permanent anointing to empower the faithful.

Jesus was identified by JB as the One who would Baptise with the Holy Spirit and Fire. Subsequently He did, and the Church was born.

Both the indwelling presence and the Baptism of the Spirit were released after the resurrection.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you place yourself on a par with Elijah, you either don't fully understand who he was, or you have an overly inflated view of yourself. It's like regarding yourself as spiritually mature/advanced as Moses who spoke with God face to face on a daily basis. Take a look at Num 12:6-8. God is clear that regular prophets paled in comparison to Moses. And you? I'm pretty sure you are not even a regular prophet!

I will just stick to Scripture and you can do with it as you will...

James 5:
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. A prayer of a righteous person, when it is brought about, can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

I have been privileged to witness Him move in miraculous ways.

I had a face to face encounter with Jesus when I was about 8.

My focus is to serve as I am led and encourage others to enjoy a vibrant life of faith.

I am past worrying about what others think of me - I just walk with Him and watch the action.

We attend a local Anglican Church where our contribution is appreciated.

And yes, I have a prophetic disposition which He has used strategically and there is more to come.

I don't compare myself with other people, just walk in the faith I am given.

 

[JAL]

I will just stick to Scripture and you can do with it as you will...

James 5:
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. A prayer of a righteous person, when it is brought about, can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

I have been privileged to witness Him move in miraculous ways.

I had a face to face encounter with Jesus when I was about 8.

My focus is to serve as I am led and encourage others to enjoy a vibrant life of faith.

I am past worrying about what others think of me - I just walk with Him and watch the action.

We attend a local Anglican Church where our contribution is appreciated.

And yes, I have a prophetic disposition which He has used strategically and there is more to come.

I don't compare myself with other people, just walk in the faith I am given.

Yes you can and should pray for Elijah-level blessings, Moses-level blessings, and so on.

Doesn't mean you are already on that level! That's all I'm saying.

 

[JAL]

Well John the Baptist, the greatest OT saint, was told to recognise the Messiah as being the only one upon whom the Spirit would come upon and remain upon. Otherwise he would not have known who the Messiah was.
OT saints received a touch of the Spirit, Who would then leave.

So yes when Jesus came the ball game changed and the promised indwelling presence was given and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was first given to Jesus, then the Church as a permanent anointing to empower the faithful.

Jesus was identified by JB as the One who would Baptise with the Holy Spirit and Fire. Subsequently He did, and the Church was born.

Both the indwelling presence and the Baptism of the Spirit were released after the resurrection.

No read Gal 3 again. The Promise/Covenant is inviolable. Even Israel's Old Covenant did not interrupt it. The game did not change one iota.

 

[JAL]

Jesus was identified by JB as the One who would Baptise with the Holy Spirit and Fire. Subsequently He did, and the Church was born..

You miss the overall purpose of the NT. The NT isn't merely a carbon-copy of the OT, it is a further clarification of things not clearly spelled out in the OT. ONE of those things is the ministry of the Spirit, and the Son's role in pouring Him out (in BOTH testaments). It's not something new.

Both the indwelling presence and the Baptism of the Spirit were released after the resurrection.

Not according to Gal 3.

 

[Guojing]

As mentioned earlier, Israel's New Covenant isn't in effect until the eschaton. In that covenant, Israel can't backslide anymore due to the writing of the law on their hearts. Which means perfection.

Any Israelite can become a member of the Abrahamic covenant by repentance and saving faith. Water baptism has never been mandatory for salvation.

What does escahton means?

 

[JAL]

What does escahton means?

Think eschatology. Refers to the end times and/or the next life. I tried to be clear that I was referring to the next life (heaven).

 

[JAL]

Jesus was identified by JB as the One who would Baptise with the Holy Spirit and Fire. Subsequently He did, and the Church was born.on.

Not according to the Covenant Theology of the Reformation. In the Reformed view, the "church" technically refers to all born-again believers in both testaments, saved by the Inward Witness of the Holy Spirit (the indwelling Holy Spirit) who helps stir up faith in Christ. Which is my position as well.