If evolution is true

[Frank Robert]

What does she say about savannah chimpanzees, which don't live in forests?

Habitat

"Chimpanzees are found in secondary re-growth forests, open woodlands, bamboo forests, swamp forests, and even open savanna with bands of riverine forest and forest savanna mosaic. In these areas they seldom venture far into the savanna except to move from one forest patch to the next....

Chimpanzees, like humans, have such catholic tastes that they are able to live in a wide variety of habitats, unlike gorillas and orangutans which have more specialized diets in the wild."

Source: the Jane Goodall Institute​

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Because of the quote from the Jane Goodall quote that says "In these areas they seldom venture far into the savanna except to move from one forest patch to the next." Ergo, to them, the apes just kept going and going.

OIC, they kept going until there were no more forests to move to... So these were, presumably, nomadic forest apes, unlike so many that sit tight and defend a territory.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

OIC, they kept going until there were no more forests to move to... So these were, presumably, nomadic forest apes, unlike so many that sit tight and defend a territory.

No, I think that inquiring mind meat that they just kept going hoping to find new forest instead of turning back when they realised there were no forests to be found.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Habitat

"Chimpanzees are found in secondary re-growth forests, open woodlands, bamboo forests, swamp forests, and even open savanna with bands of riverine forest and forest savanna mosaic. In these areas they seldom venture far into the savanna except to move from one forest patch to the next....

Chimpanzees, like humans, have such catholic tastes that they are able to live in a wide variety of habitats, unlike gorillas and orangutans which have more specialized diets in the wild."

Source: the Jane Goodall Institute​

Apparently not the case for Fongoli savannah chimps which are adapted for savannah conditions, and where forest makes up only 5% of their range. Not so different from the progression I described earlier.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No, I think that inquiring mind meat that they just kept going hoping to find new forest instead of turning back when they realised there were no forests to be found.

Oh... so they'd just wander off into the savannah and - Ta-Da! - become savannah apes?

 

[gaara4158]

People arguing with me that by their own admission don't have a clue, and/or have put very little thought into it.

So if you consult a book you’re mindlessly parroting it, and if you don’t you’re thoughtlessly ignorant. You clearly aren’t interested in good faith discussion here, only in finding excuses to reject edifying responses to your questions. Surely this blatant dishonesty of yours is not encouraged by your religion? What kind of sick joke is your handle “inquiring mind” given your complete refusal to entertain a different perspective?

 

[inquiring mind]

So if you consult a book you’re mindlessly parroting it, and if you don’t you’re thoughtlessly ignorant. You clearly aren’t interested in good faith discussion here, only in finding excuses to reject edifying responses to your questions. Surely this blatant dishonesty of yours is not encouraged by your religion? What kind of sick joke is your handle “inquiring mind” given your complete refusal to entertain a different perspective?

Religion and faith aren't really accepted here, so I'm just trying to fit in you could say.

 

[Frank Robert]

Apparently not the case for Fongoli savannah chimps which are adapted for savannah conditions, and where forest makes up only 5% of their range. Not so different from the progression I described earlier.

Interesting article. @inquiring mind is focusing in on "why" the chimps settled on the savannah rather than how the chimps adapted to environmental pressures which can be used as referential models to hypothesize about the behavior of extinct hominins.

 

[Frank Robert]

I don't need a scientific hypothesis and I'm really not trying to sway anyone in that area, but if I couldn't answer why chimps would leave everything they knew, and what was natural to them, in a time of no human encroachment and plenty of forestation, well, I would want to give it some thought.

So you should give it some thought and let us know what you come up with. I am not at all curious but perhaps others are.

 

[Astrophile]

You make good points, but it seems after-the-fact (whether creation or evolution) or ‘mankind specific’ transitions. My question is... if you think macro evolution occurred, ‘why’ would a group or groups of apes decide to leave the jungle, and everything natural to them, for an unknown or un-natural way of life in the first place? Just curious about your thinking... it doesn't seem like a natural act, evidenced by the many apes that didn't do it.

It may have been more a matter of the jungle leaving the apes. If the climate of eastern and southern Africa became drier during the Pliocene epoch, as an result of increasing glaciation near to the poles, the rain forests may have slowly thinned out, becoming patchy woodland and then savanna.

This deforestation would have taken many years, so it would not have been noticeable during the lifetime of an individual ape, and it would have occurred over large areas. The jungle would not have been still there only a few miles away so that the apes could have followed it. Instead the areas of forest shrank and the areas of savanna expanded over areas of thousands of square kilometres, so that over the decades the apes had to adapt to the new woodland or savanna environment, because that was all that was accessible.

 

[Astrophile]

That’s a valid point. But, after a week of strained posture and being lion’s food don’t you think you would hear a ‘who’s for going back to another area of the jungle?’

How did they know that there was another area of the jungle to go back to? They didn't have maps. Also the thinning of the rain forest and the advance of the savanna didn't happen over a few weeks or years; it probably took decades or centuries, so that no individual ape would have any memory of a time when they lived in an environment that was radically different from the present one.

 

[Astrophile]

It appears as though Jane Goodall, who actually lived among and studied them, thinks they were inclined to stay in forest and jungle areas unless forced out by some dire intervention. There was no human intervention, like de-forestation way back when your scenario supposedly took place... so, I'm still wondering what made them leave unlimited forests and their natural habitat for open grassland (permanently)?

Deforestation can have other causes besides human intervention. Natural climatic change, particularly a decrease in rainfall, can be equally effective.

 

[gaara4158]

Religion and faith aren't really accepted here, so I'm just trying to fit in you could say.

Good faith has nothing to do with religion, and it’s an absolute prerequisite for productive conversation. I’m sorry to hear you don’t care about that.

 

[Astrid]

Can you explain how this is relivant?

Chimps prefer to live in forests. No one is disputing this, but even your very short quote demonstrates that they don't burst into flames is they take one step onto a savanna.

Also, chimps are conveniently similar to humanity's ancestors, they are not our ancestors.

So given that you think Jane Goodall is a reliable source why don't you accept her scientific conclusions that humans and chimps have multiple behavioral patterns in common that they inherited from their common ancestor?

Many creatures do well in a wide variety
of habitats.

 

[inquiring mind]

Good faith has nothing to do with religion, and it’s an absolute prerequisite for productive conversation. I’m sorry to hear you don’t care about that.

I didn't say that I did't care about it.

 

[Astrid]

I can't parse what you mean by this - can you rephrase it?

I gave you a number of possibilities. But whatever the precise explanation, they did.

Forests have edges! AND generally not a distinct edge.
Chimps are curious. That they'd discover food and space to live in
is so not surprising.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Interesting article. @inquiring mind is focusing in on "why" the chimps settled on the savannah rather than how the chimps adapted to environmental pressures which can be used as referential models to hypothesize about the behavior of extinct hominins.

As if their agency must be directed at that specific goal for it to occur, rather than it being an indirect consequence short-term goals (survival) under pressure of circumstances...

 

[VladTheEmailer]

How about consulting an expert...
Chimpanzees are found in secondary re-growth forests, open woodlands, bamboo forests, swamp forests, and even open savanna with bands of riverine forest and forest savanna mosaic. In these areas they seldom venture far into the savanna except to move from one forest patch to the next.

Habitat - Jane Goodall Institute UK

In other words they don't stick to one particular environment. Why aren't they afraid to venture off?

 

[Astrid]

In other words they don't stick to one particular environment. Why aren't they afraid to venture off?

Who knows? But adaptability or lack of decides who survives.

 

[gaara4158]

I didn't say that I did't care about it.

You didn’t have to. You demonstrated it. You aren’t engaging with the content of the responses your ill-formed questions are receiving, instead focusing on excuses to dismiss them. Many animals migrate and shape their environments as they see fit, and the superior intelligence and dexterity of humans has allowed them to do so more effectively than any other animal on the planet.