Hellacious Hermeneutics ... or "Why're we so serious about the Bible"?

[Clare73]

Wherever God's people gather around Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran

So you're speaking of failure to assemble in "God and me hangin' out together."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We all read the same Bible.
We all have the same Holy Spirit living inside of us.

If these two things were all that was needed to understand the Bible, then how come people who read the same Bible and have the same Holy Spirit living in them come to drastically different opinions on the Bible?

The missing ingredient is that being a Christian isn't about being a single individual reading the Bible and assuming the Holy Spirit is going to just input truth directly into our brains. Being a Christian means being in communion with Christ and His Body, the Church. The Church which has been given the possession of God's word, to preach God's word, to live God's word, to hear and receive God's word--through the exercising of the Keys of the kingdom.

One of the most heinous doctrines of the modern era is the notion that being a Christian means having a private, individualistic spirituality. It's just "me and God" hanging out by ourselves.

And yet, no where in Scripture, and no where in the history of the Church, is this ever what Christianity is about.

Man loves authoritarianism, so he seeks to lord power over other men; and so very often when men speak out against the authoritarianism (rightly condemned) in one place, their goal is not the way of Christ--toward sacrifice and weakness--but rather the way of the flesh: Power and dominance.

The rebel, once liberated the tyranny of the former regime, immediately accumulates power that he may now become the tyrant over others.

So it has been with many who, rightly, have observed the myriad spiritual and other forms of abuses in many churches. They rightly decry the hypocrisy, the legalism, the moralism. But then they end up decrying the very institution of Christ Himself, His Church. And so the natural man rebels, and then takes up his pride, his power, and all his dreadful tyranny, and then seeks to not only deprive himself of the life-giving power of God's grace for which reason He established His Church in the first place, but we go out seeking to poison the minds of others--that we might subtly inculcate them into our man-made doctrines, tickling their ears, and therefore become lords and tyrants over our brothers and sisters.

The intense opposition to "organized religion" may, in one sense, arise from the very real problem of ecclesiastical and spiritual abuse; but rather than clearing the temple of idols, man decides to set fire to the entire edifice. Where Jesus cleansed the Temple by overturning the money-changers' tables and driving out the animals, but never once attacked the Holy of Holies; sinners care less for the abuses of religion and are hostile toward religion itself. And by sinners, I don't just mean the non-believing outside of the Church, I mean us--all of us--those of us who have been baptized and redeemed.

The old man is always trying to assert his dominance. Because the old man is a tyrant.

But we are not rebels. At least not rebels against the good order of God's Church, instituted by Christ Jesus our Lord, through which He gives the Holy Spirit, graciously saving and healing us by the gifts of His own instituted Word and Sacraments. We are called to rebel against our own sin, to wrestle against the old man, to drown the old man through repentance, and to be made alive by God's grace, by the power of His word and Spirit.

But I do not find that life in myself.
I can not turn to myself, seek myself in anything, or believe that I can by myself comprehend all the things of God simply because I call myself "Christian". That is the old man again, rearing his ugly head.

The new man, alive in Christ, lives in the koinonia--the communion or fellowship--of Christ, the Spirit, and the Church.

And for this reason God has ensured that His Church be equipped for the edification of all the Faithful. That is why some are pastors, and some are teachers, and some are evangelists, etc. For we have all received gifts from the same Spirit, that together, as the members of Christ's Mystical Body of His Church, be of mutual benefit to one another and for one another. The arm cannot say to the body, "I do not need you", if I sever a limb, it is dead without the body. So it is with us.

If we sever ourselves from the Church, from the place of God's Word and Sacrament, where Christ is Head and the Holy Spirit pours out abundant life to us that we may be filled with the Spirit and walk in Christ, then we commit spiritual suicide.

Christ is the Vine, we are but the branches. We only have life if we abide in Him.

And we only abide in Him as members of His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok. So by what you're saying here, Jenz Zimmermann's view on Hermeneutics doesn't cause any problems for you being that he's a Christian and all, right?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you're speaking of failure to assemble in "God and me hangin' out together."

I can't baptize myself.
I can't partake of the Lord's Supper by myself.
I can't hear the Gospel being preached by myself.
I can't pronounce forgiveness upon myself.
I can't welcome myself to myself in peace, love, and unity within Communion of Saints by myself.

So wherever the Faithful come together in the name of Christ, to repent of our sins, hear His Word, receive forgiveness of our sins, offer thanks and praise, pray, read the Scriptures, partake of the Lord's Supper, and be edified by good instruction; wherever the Office of the Keys are being exercised for the benefit of Christ's Faithful--that is the Church.

Without the Keys, without the Word, without the Sacraments, there is no Church. A very large Bible study, a group sing-a-long, or just hanging out together isn't Church. Those are all really, really good things that people in the Church can or maybe should do. But that isn't Church. Church is where God's people gather for Word and Sacrament, by the use of the Keys, which for good order the Church entrusts to called and ordained ministers of the Gospel--pastors.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ok. So by whay you're saying here, Jenz Zimmermann's view on Hermeneutics doesn't cause any problems for you then, being that he's a Christian and all, right?

From what I gathered in the video, hermeneutics and a broader hermeneutical way of thinking can be a pretty deep and interesting way of looking at the world; taking pause to critically analyze our perceptions. But I didn't see anything that would be problematic in regard to the study of good exegesis. and the good exercise of exegetical tools and skills. Recognizing that even our own exegesis might be flawed--because we are always flawed and fallible, perceiving things through our own biases--wouldn't suggest to me that there's no point to learning good exegesis; but rather that we should always be humble enough to keep learning. Good exegesis might be imperfect, but it's still better than bad exegesis or eisegesis.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

I can't baptize myself.
I can't partake of the Lord's Supper by myself.
I can't hear the Gospel being preached by myself.
I can't pronounce forgiveness upon myself.

I can't welcome myself to myself in peace, love, and unity within Communion of Saints by myself.

So wherever the Faithful come together in the name of Christ, to repent of our sins, hear His Word, receive forgiveness of our sins, offer thanks and praise, pray, read the Scriptures, partake of the Lord's Supper, and be edified by good instruction; wherever the Office of the Keys are being exercised for the benefit of Christ's Faithful--that is the Church.

Without the Keys, without the Word, without the Sacraments, there is no Church. A very large Bible study, a group sing-a-long, or just hanging out together isn't Church. Those are all really, really good things that people in the Church can or maybe should do. But that isn't Church.

Church is where God's people gather for Word and Sacrament, by the use of the Keys, which for good order the Church entrusts to called and ordained ministers of the Gospel--pastors.

The church is the body of Christ.
In the NT it is the local assembly of the body of Christ which entrusts the good order of that assembly to its own chosen elders and deacons.

Are you saying pastors forgive sin?

The NT tells us to confess our sins to one another. Where does it say we have the power to forgive anyone's sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The church is the body of Christ.
In the NT it is the local assembly of the body of Christ which entrusts the good order of that assembly to its own chosen elders and deacons.

Are you saying pastors forgive sin?

The NT tells us to confess our sins to one another. Where does it say we have the power to forgive anyone's sin.

Our Lord Jesus said to His Apostles, "Whoevers sins you forgive are forgiven" (John 20:23). This is part of the exercising of the Keys, compare with what our Lord said in Matthew ch. 16, "I will give you the Keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:19).

How are the Keys exercised? Through the Church's ministry of Word and Sacrament, that ministry is exercised, for good order, by those entrusted with the ministry: Bishops and presbyters, i.e. pastors. So those called and ordained within the Church for the express purpose of ministering with Word and Sacrament. And so in Christ's name and stead, by His word and authority, pastors pronounce forgiveness of sins. Holy Absolution.

Pastors don't have "the power" to do anything. But as called and ordained ministers of Christ's Word, they are there to minister to Christ's flock with His Word, with His Sacraments. And that includes pronouncing forgiveness of sins, in accordance with Christ's word and command.

The Church is much more than just the local congregation. The Church is properly catholic, it is the Communion of Saints. The Church is all the baptized everywhere, both on earth and in heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Der Alte]

***

<ViaCrucis>Our Lord Jesus said to His Apostles, "Whoevers sins you forgive are forgiven" (John 20:23). This is part of the exercising of the Keys, compare with what our Lord said in Matthew ch. 16, "I will give you the Keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:19).
How are the Keys exercised? Through the Church's ministry of Word and Sacrament, that ministry is exercised, for good order, by those entrusted with the ministry: Bishops and presbyters, i.e. pastors. So those called and ordained within the Church for the express purpose of ministering with Word and Sacrament. And so in Christ's name and stead, by His word and authority, pastors pronounce forgiveness of sins. Holy Absolution.
Pastors don't have "the power" to do anything. But as called and ordained ministers of Christ's Word, they are there to minister to Christ's flock with His Word, with His Sacraments. And that includes pronouncing forgiveness of sins, in accordance with Christ's word and command.
The Church is much more than just the local congregation. The Church is properly catholic, it is the Communion of Saints. The Church is all the baptized everywhere, both on earth and in heaven.
-CryptoLutheran</Via Crucis>
By "Catholic" I understand not the denomination which is led by a Pope in Rome but the church universal.
The term "Catholic" derives from the Greek "καθ ολης/kath oles." according to the whole. This term occurs in the following 6 verses
Luke 4:14 Luke 8:39 Luke 23:5 Acts of the Apostles 9:31 Acts of the Apostles 9:42 Acts of the Apostles 10:37

 

[Clare73]

Our Lord Jesus said to His Apostles, "Whoevers sins you forgive are forgiven" (John 20:23). This is part of the exercising of the Keys, compare with what our Lord said in Matthew ch. 16, "I will give you the Keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:19).

Would the keys to the kingdom of heaven be the gospel of faith in him for the forgiveness of sin,
which gospel declares those loosed from the bonds of Satan/sin sin because of belief faith in him,
and declares those bound to Satan/sin because of unbelief in him?

How are the Keys exercised? Through the Church's ministry of Word and Sacrament, that ministry is exercised, for good order, by those entrusted with the ministry: Bishops and presbyters, i.e. pastors. So those called and ordained within the Church for the express purpose of ministering with Word and Sacrament. And so in Christ's name and stead, by His word and authority, pastors pronounce forgiveness of sins. Holy Absolution.

Pastors don't have "the power" to do anything. But as called and ordained ministers of Christ's Word, they are there to minister to Christ's flock with His Word, with His Sacraments. And that includes pronouncing forgiveness of sins, in accordance with Christ's word and command.

The Church is much more than just the local congregation. The Church is properly catholic, it is the Communion of Saints. The Church is all the baptized everywhere, both on earth and in heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Would the keys to the kingdom of heaven be the gospel of faith in him for the forgiveness of sin,
which gospel declares those loosed from the bonds of Satan/sin sin through faith in him,
and declares those bound to Satan/sin because of unbelief in him?

The Keys are the office and power which Christ has given His Church to bind and loose sin. As in the aforementioned Scriptures provided. Thus Christ gives to His Church the task of preaching His Gospel, and He institutes the Sacraments--Baptism, Communion, Absolution--through which forgiveness of sins in the power of His Gospel is found. For the sake of good order the Church calls regular, ordained ministers--pastors--to exercise the Keys in the Church. Not everyone is called to be a pastor, not everyone is called to preach, as the Apostle says in Ephesians 4, and in 1 Corinthians 12. This is why only pastors exercise the Keys, as ministers of Word and Sacrament. Pastors are those whom the Church has entrusted with Christ's gift of His Word, to preach the Word to and for the Faithful both in and out of season (2 Timothy 4:2), to administer the Sacraments. That is why pastors ordinarily preach sermons, giving instruction and guidance from God's word; properly making the distinction between Law and Gospel--"dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15). Administering the Sacraments, which is why under all ordinary circumstances it is the Pastor who administers Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Holy Absolution.

When the pastor pronounces our sins forgiven in Christ's name and stead it is true and real grace, forgiveness of real sinners right there, by God's word, power, and faithfulness in the Gospel. It is as the Scriptures have said, that if we confess our sins God "is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Here in our Confession and in the Words of Absolution there is real grace, real forgiveness; whether our sins be great or small, here is Christ our Good Shepherd Himself telling us that we are forgiven. For the word which the pastor speaks is not his own, but Christ's; it is not the pastor's authority, but Christ's authority; it is not the pastor's power, but Christ's power. It is Christ who Himself declares our sins forgiven, and He has chosen to do so through His Church, and so the pastor stands in persona Christi for Christ's flock. That is the meaning of the Keys of the kingdom, Christ Himself stands in our midst serving us with His Word and Sacraments.

We only have one Shepherd, but Christ shepherds His flock through His Church, and that shepherding comes in the form of the office of the pastor. That is why they are called pastors, they are shepherds who watch over Christ's flock in the name and stead of Jesus Christ our Lord, our one and only Good Shepherd.

It is not as though pastors have a special grace, or a special anointing, or a special calling from God. Pastors are ordinary sinners like everyone else, but whom the Church calls and ordains for good order and the faithful exercising of the Keys. That the whole Church might be built up, strengthened, and encouraged in the faith by God's word.

Without faithful ministers to minister, without people to exercise the Keys, there can't be any Church. Because the Church is where the Keys are, for Christ gave His Church the Keys. Not to Peter alone, but to the whole Church. Thus the Keys are not the private possession of any one individual, but is the common possession, the common property of the whole Church of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

The Keys are the office and power which Christ has given His Church to bind and loose sin. As in the aforementioned Scriptures provided. Thus Christ gives to His Church the task of preaching His Gospel, and He institutes the Sacraments--Baptism, Communion, Absolution--through which forgiveness of sins in the power of His Gospel is found. For the sake of good order the Church calls regular, ordained ministers--pastors--to exercise the Keys in the Church. Not everyone is called to be a pastor, not everyone is called to preach, as the Apostle says in Ephesians 4, and in 1 Corinthians 12. This is why only pastors exercise the Keys, as ministers of Word and Sacrament. Pastors are those whom the Church has entrusted with Christ's gift of His Word, to preach the Word to and for the Faithful both in and out of season (2 Timothy 4:2), to administer the Sacraments. That is why pastors ordinarily preach sermons, giving instruction and guidance from God's word; properly making the distinction between Law and Gospel--"dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15). Administering the Sacraments, which is why under all ordinary circumstances it is the Pastor who administers Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Holy Absolution.

When the pastor pronounces our sins forgiven in Christ's name

Where do we find absolution practiced in the NT?

I find baptism practiced in the NT, I find the Lord's Supper practiced in the NT, where do we find absolution practiced in the NT?

My question remains:
Would the keys to the kingdom of heaven be the gospel of faith in him for the forgiveness of sin,
which gospel declares those loosed from the bonds of Satan/sin sin because of belief faith in him,
and declares those bound to Satan/sin because of unbelief in him?

and stead it is true and real grace, forgiveness of real sinners right there, by God's word, power, and faithfulness in the Gospel. It is as the Scriptures have said, that if we confess our sins God "is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Here in our Confession and in the Words of Absolution there is real grace, real forgiveness; whether our sins be great or small, here is Christ our Good Shepherd Himself telling us that we are forgiven. For the word which the pastor speaks is not his own, but Christ's; it is not the pastor's authority, but Christ's authority; it is not the pastor's power, but Christ's power. It is Christ who Himself declares our sins forgiven, and He has chosen to do so through His Church, and so the pastor stands in persona Christi for Christ's flock. That is the meaning of the Keys of the kingdom, Christ Himself stands in our midst serving us with His Word and Sacraments.

We only have one Shepherd, but Christ shepherds His flock through His Church, and that shepherding comes in the form of the office of the pastor. That is why they are called pastors, they are shepherds who watch over Christ's flock in the name and stead of Jesus Christ our Lord, our one and only Good Shepherd.

It is not as though pastors have a special grace, or a special anointing, or a special calling from God. Pastors are ordinary sinners like everyone else, but whom the Church calls and ordains for good order and the faithful exercising of the Keys. That the whole Church might be built up, strengthened, and encouraged in the faith by God's word.

Without faithful ministers to minister, without people to exercise the Keys, there can't be any Church. Because the Church is where the Keys are, for Christ gave His Church the Keys. Not to Peter alone, but to the whole Church. Thus the Keys are not the private possession of any one individual, but is the common possession, the common property of the whole Church of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Where do we find absolution practiced in the NT?

I find baptism practiced in the NT, I find the Lord's Supper practiced in the NT, where do we find absolution practiced in the NT?

I'm not aware of a description of Absolution, like we do with Communion and Baptism; but it's certainly proscribed, and it's always been Christian practice. There have been differences in practice based on time and place. Western practice has included both General Confession and Private Confession, though up until the 16th century confessionals didn't exist in the West (which is why Roman Catholics have confessionals, but Lutherans traditionally don't.

Furthermore, for Lutherans the General Confession is considered entirely sufficient, with Private Confession as seen as an option for those who wish to unburden their conscience.

In contrast, my understanding of the Eastern practice is that Confession is quasi-public and quasi-private, it happens in the Liturgy, but Confession and Absolution is done one-on-one. And apparently the practice of General Confession is controversial within Orthodoxy.

At the root, however, it's all the same thing: We confess our sins, and our sins are pronounced forgiven in accordance with God's Word, and this gracious act and word of God is regarded as sacramental/as a Sacrament.

My question remains:
Would the keys to the kingdom of heaven be the gospel of faith in him for the forgiveness of sin,
which gospel declares those loosed from the bonds of Satan/sin sin because of belief faith in him,
and declares those bound to Satan/sin because of unbelief in him?

The exercising of the Keys isn't only to loose/forgive, but also bind/retain. The proper exercise of the Keys is not only in the preaching of the Gospel to loose and forgive sin, but also the preaching of the Law to bind and retain.

If I were to go to my pastor for private confession, but it was obvious to the pastor that I showed absolutely no remorse, no contrition--the pastor would be exercising his pastoral office correctly by telling me that I need to repent, because confession without contrition is meaningless.

Additionally, the exercising of the Keys means that preaching is of both Law and Gospel. To preach the word is not only to preach the Gospel, but also the Law. But good and faithful preaching means properly making the distinction between Law and Gospel. To preach the Law as the Law, and the Gospel as the Gospel. The Law for repentance, and the Gospel for faith.

So the Keys of the kingdom are the proper exercising of the Church's Sacred Ministry. Both in Law and in Gospel. The Ministery/Keys are, again, the property of the whole Church; but it is the Church that calls and ordains individuals for the use of that Ministry in practical and well-ordered ways. Without ministers to minister, the exercising of the Keys would be meaningless; which is why some are called by the Church to take up the burden of this ministry for the good of the whole Church.

And that's why I can't minister to myself, and need the Church, where God's Word is preached, His Sacraments administered, I confess my sins, I am comforted with the Gospel; and I am reminded of my Christian obligation to be in the world loving my neighbor through good works.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

I'm not aware of a description of Absolution, like we do with Communion and Baptism; but it's certainly proscribed, and it's always been Christian practice. There have been differences in practice based on time and place. Western practice has included both General Confession and Private Confession, though up until the 16th century confessionals didn't exist in the West (which is why Roman Catholics have confessionals, but Lutherans traditionally don't.

Furthermore, for Lutherans the General Confession is considered entirely sufficient, with Private Confession as seen as an option for those who wish to unburden their conscience.

In contrast, my understanding of the Eastern practice is that Confession is quasi-public and quasi-private, it happens in the Liturgy, but Confession and Absolution is done one-on-one. And apparently the practice of General Confession is controversial within Orthodoxy.

At the root, however, it's all the same thing: We confess our sins, and our sins are pronounced forgiven in accordance with God's Word, and this gracious act and word of God is regarded as sacramental/as a Sacrament.

The exercising of the Keys isn't only to loose/forgive, but also bind/retain. The proper exercise of the Keys is not only in the preaching of the Gospel to loose and forgive sin, but also the preaching of the Law to bind and retain.

The gospel both loosens those who believe, and binds/retains those who do not believe. (John 3:18)

If I were to go to my pastor for private confession, but it was obvious to the pastor that I showed absolutely no remorse, no contrition--the pastor would be exercising his pastoral office correctly by telling me that I need to repent, because confession without contrition is meaningless.

Additionally, the exercising of the Keys means that preaching is of both Law and Gospel. To preach the word is not only to preach the Gospel, but also the Law. But good and faithful preaching means properly making the distinction between Law and Gospel. To preach the Law as the Law, and the Gospel as the Gospel. The Law for repentance, and the Gospel for faith.

Does that mean preaching the Law as Jesus conceived it (Matthew 22:37-41) and
as Paul taught it (Romans 13:8-10, 1 Corinthians 9:20)?

So the Keys of the kingdom are the proper exercising of the Church's Sacred Ministry. Both in Law and in Gospel. The Ministery/Keys are, again, the property of the whole Church; but it is the Church that calls and ordains individuals for the use of that Ministry in practical and well-ordered ways. Without ministers to minister, the exercising of the Keys would be meaningless; which is why some are called by the Church to take up the burden of this ministry for the good of the whole Church.

And that's why I can't minister to myself, and need the Church, where God's Word is preached, His Sacraments administered, I confess my sins, I am comforted with the Gospel; and I am reminded of my Christian obligation to be in the world loving my neighbor through good works.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The gospel both loosens those who believe, and binds/retains those who do not believe. (John 3:18)

The condemnation is from the Law, not the Gospel. Only the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us by grace alone, through faith alone, covers us and releases us from the guilt and condemnation of the Law. The Gospel does not bind, it frees, it loosens, it unbinds, it undoes the shackles of sin, death, hell, and the devil.

Does that mean preaching the Law as Jesus conceived it (Matthew 22:37-41) and
as Paul taught it (Romans 13:8-10, 1 Corinthians 9:20)?

And also what the Apostle writes in Galatians 5:14 and Romans 12:1-21, This is what Lutherans call the Third Use of the Law, the Law for the person of faith in Christ serves as the guide for how we ought to live and conduct ourselves in the world in relation to our neighbor; this is Righteousness Coram Mundus, our righteousness before the world, rather than Righteousness Coram Deo, our righteousness before God. Only the righteousness passively received through faith--the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ justifies and renders us just before God. So the proper preaching of the Law also includes the Second Use of the Law: The Law is a mirror that reveals our sins, and so rightly tells us what is sin and that we have sinned. So we must also add what the Apostle says in Romans 7:5, 7-24; and John 3:19-20.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

The condemnation is from the Law, not the Gospel.

John 3:18 is the gospel. . ."those who do not believe are condemned already."

Only the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us by grace alone, through faith alone, covers us and releases us from the guilt and condemnation of the Law. The Gospel does not bind, it frees, it loosens, it unbinds, it undoes the shackles of sin, death, hell, and the devil.

Salvation is only half the gospel--the good news.
The other half of the gospel--the bad news, is condemnation which is the reason for the good news.
See John 3:18 for the full gospel.

And also what the Apostle writes in Galatians 5:14 and Romans 12:1-21, This is what Lutherans call the Third Use of the Law, the Law for the person of faith in Christ serves as the guide for how we ought to live and conduct ourselves in the world in relation to our neighbor; this is Righteousness Coram Mundus, our righteousness before the world, rather than Righteousness Coram Deo, our righteousness before God. Only the righteousness passively received through faith--the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ justifies and renders us just before God. So the proper preaching of the Law also includes the Second Use of the Law: The Law is a mirror that reveals our sins, and so rightly tells us what is sin and that we have sinned. So we must also add what the Apostle says in Romans 7:5, 7-24; and John 3:19-20.

-CryptoLutheran

In Romans 13:8-10, Paul presents Matthew 22:37-40 as the guide for how to conduct ourselves, the law being written on our hearts, not in a code of law.

 

[ViaCrucis]

John 3:18 is the gospel. . ."those who do not believe are condemned already."

Salvation is only half the gospel--the good news.
The other half of the gospel--the bad news, is condemnation which is the reason for the good news.
See John 3:18 for the full gospel.

In Romans 13:8-10, Paul presents Matthew 22:37-40 as the guide for how to conduct ourselves, the law being written on our hearts, not in a code of law.

Those who do not believe are condemned already because of the condemnation of the Law. There is no condemnation in the Gospel. None whatsoever.

There is no "bad news" in the Gospel. That's an oxymoron. Good news, by definition, can't be bad news. Likewise bad news, by definition, can't be good news.

The Gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ to sinners condemned under the Law.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Those who do not believe are condemned already because of the condemnation of the Law.

Those who do not believe are condemned by the sin of Adam into which they are born (Romans 5:18).
Adam has nothing to do with the Mosaic law..

There is no condemnation in the Gospel. None whatsoever.

John 3:18 a part of Jesus' gospel to the world.

There is no "bad news" in the Gospel. That's an oxymoron. Good news, by definition, can't be bad news. Likewise bad news, by definition, can't be good news.

And good news is about deliverance from the bad news of condemnation.
You can't separate them, for it is the purpose of the good news of the gospel to deliver us from the bad news. Without the bad news, there would be no need for a gospel of good news.

The Gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ to sinners condemned under the Law.

All mankind are born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) as God's enemies (Romans 5:10).

The gospel is the good news of deliverance from the above bad news.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Those who do not believe are condemned by the sin of Adam into which they are born (Romans 5:18).
Adam has nothing to do with the Mosaic law..

I'm not talking about [just] the Mosaic Law. All which God commands is Law. Adam fell as a transgressor of God's commandment, otherwise to speak of "the one man's disobedience" is nonsense.

The Law = Commandments, all of God's commandments, not just the 613 mitzvot of the Torah.

John 3:18

a part of Jesus' gospel to the world.

So what's the good news in telling people they are condemned, how is that good news?

And if you're saying the Gospel isn't just good news, but also bad news, again I have to point out that such a statement is pure nonsense.

It's the EU-ANGELION, the GOOD-NEWS.

The condemnation that rests upon sinners is the condemnation of the Law: The charge and verdict that we are guilty sinners.

And good news is about deliverance from the bad news of condemnation.

Yes. The Gospel is for sinners condemned under the Law.

You can't separate them, for it is the purpose of the good news of the gospel to deliver us from the bad news. Without the bad news, there would be no need for a gospel of good news.
All mankind are born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) as God's enemies (Romans 5:10).

The gospel is the good news of deliverance from the above bad news.

The bad news isn't the Gospel. The bad news is that we are sinners condemned--condemned under the Law.

So, again, the radical distinction of Law and Gospel.

"You're condemned" isn't good news, it can't be. And there is nothing in John 3:18 which would suggest that it is. John 3:18 isn't the Gospel, the Gospel is John 3:16-18a,

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned" is Gospel.

"but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." is Law.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

I'm not talking about [just] the Mosaic Law. All which God commands is Law. Adam fell as a transgressor of God's commandment, otherwise to speak of "the one man's disobedience" is nonsense.

Precisely, and it is that sin which condemns all mankind (Romans 5:18).

For there were no more commandments until Moses.
There was nothing to transgress that could condemn them until the Mosaic law.
And yet from Adam to Moses they all died anyway for transgressing the law (Romans 5:12-14).
So which law did they transgress which caused them to die?
As progeny of Adam, they were held guilty of Adam's transgression which was reckoned/imputed to them (Romans 5:18).

The Law = Commandments, all of God's commandments, not just the 613 mitzvot of the Torah.

And now the entire Mosaic law has been set aside, abolished (Ephesians 2:15), and the covenant based on it made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), and
the Ten Commandments have been subsumed in Jesus' two NT commandments of Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).

In the NT we are not under the Law (1 Corinthians 9:20), we are under Christ's law of Matthew 22:37-39 (1 Corinthians 9:21).

So what's the good news in telling people they are condemned, how is that good news?

Previously addressed. . .you are not addressing/interacting with the Scriptures presented.

And if you're saying the Gospel isn't just good news, but also bad news, again I have to point out that such a statement is pure nonsense.

It's the EU-ANGELION, the GOOD-NEWS.

The condemnation that rests upon sinners is the condemnation of the Law: The charge and verdict that we are guilty sinners.

Yes, born guilty of the sin of Adam which is reckoned/imputed to all in Adam by birth (Romans 5:18),
we are by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) and enemies of God (Romans 5:9-10).
The sin of Adam is reckoned/imputed to all in Adam by birth,
just as the righteousness of Jesus Christ is reckoned/imputed to all in Christ by faith (Romans 5:18-19),
and just as righteousness was reckoned/imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3).

Yes. The Gospel is for sinners condemned under the Law.



The bad news isn't the Gospel. The bad news is that we are sinners condemned--condemned under the Law.

So, again, the radical distinction of Law and Gospel.

"You're condemned" isn't good news, it can't be. And there is nothing in John 3:18 which would suggest that it is. John 3:18 isn't the Gospel, the Gospel is John 3:16-18a,

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned" is Gospel.

"but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." is Law.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[misput]

So we are lost by birth and saved by faith neither of which we have any choice in? So we are basically just along for the ride?

 

[Clare73]

So we are lost by birth and saved by faith neither of which we have any choice in?
So we are basically just along for the ride?

We are here for the will and glory of God.

It's a God-centered universe, not a man-centered universe.
We exist for his purposes, he doesn't exist for ours.
He's God, we're not. . .best we get used to it.

Those who agree with his will and purpose enjoy a love and glory unsurpassed.
Those who do not bear the consequences of their choices.