Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And how does this answer my question exactly? I asked you how your three resurrection events belief lines up with what Jesus taught here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So, how exactly does Revelation 20:12-13 answer my question? I do agree that the time Jesus said was coming when ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected is the same time that is portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15, but that is just one resurrection event. I'm asking you how you can reconcile your 3 resurrection events belief with what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29.

He said that a time is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected, not that three times are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected.

 

[Douggg]

And how does this answer my question exactly? I asked you how your three resurrection events belief lines up with what Jesus taught here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

He said that a time is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected, not that three times are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected.

The millennial rule of Jesus for the thousand years is the last day.

The rapture/resurrection is on the eve of the last day. The resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints is at the beginning of the last day. The resurrection of the rest of the dead at the Great White Throne judgments is at the end of the last day.


(1) The rapture/resurrection event - before the great tribulation begins.
(2) The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

---------the millennial rule of Christ---------------------------

(3) The resurrection of everyone who do not take part in (1) or (2).

 

[Douggg]

The 1000 year day idea doesn’t match up with Daniel. In Daniel the just and unjust are raised during the time of Jacobs trouble which most people believe lasts 7 years. How do you justify this?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It makes more sense when one considers the last day as the 1000 year millennial rule of Jesus.

The time of Jacob's trouble begins when the Antichrist first claims to have achieved God-hood.

 

[sovereigngrace]

In present tense means that Christians have in present tense the means in Christ, that they will not face the second death, which is being cast into the lake of fire.

In 1Corinthians15, death is swallowed up in victory (for them who are Christians) is at the resurrection/rapture event.

Death and hell, themselves, however, are destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire, in Revelation 20:14, along with anyone who name is not found in the book of life in verse 15.

victory over death (for Christians) in 1Corinthians15 - by the rapture/resurrection.

destruction of death and hell - after the 1000 years are over. Being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

You are totally contradicting your own argument because your location of Revelation 20 is wrong. The reality is: death was defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. It will be abolished when Jesus comes. The Scriptures forbid your contention.

 

[Douggg]

Instead, in the next verse (1 Cor 15:24) he said "then the end will come".

Go back to Matthew 24:14-15, the end will come when the abomination of desolation is setup in the Holy Place, triggering the great tribulation.

The resurrection/rapture event is before the great tribulation, i.e. at the end of the age.

 

[Douggg]

You are totally contradicting your own argument because your location of Revelation 20 is wrong. The reality is: death was defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. It will be abolished when Jesus comes. The Scriptures forbid your contention.

death defeated by Jesus - on the cross and resurrection.

Victory over death for the dead and living Christians, in the resurrection/rapture.

death and hell destroyed when cast into the lake of fire after the millennial rule of Jesus.

death defeated - victory celebration - death destroyed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It makes more sense when one considers the last day as the 1000 year millennial rule of Jesus.

(1) Your theology forces you to reject the whole contrast between "the last days" (plural) and "the last day" (singular). That is because if you were to accept what the New Testament says about these it would totally negate your doctrine.

(2) The scriptural "last day" is an event that sees the resurrection of the righteous and the destruction of the wicked not a 1000-years age, as you say. So, does your supposed future millennium consist of 1000-years of the resurrection of the righteous and 1000-years of the destruction of the wicked 1000-years age. Remember, that is how this "last day" is marked by in Scripture.

(3) Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then explains of a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious second coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

When we look at this passage we see that the last days are likened unto
the days of Noah and the days of Lot. These were of course two debased generations that God finally gave up on. Solemnly, the days preceding Christ’s coming will be similar.

The time of Jacob's trouble begins when the Antichrist first claims to have achieved God-hood.

I have repeatedly showed you that the time of Jacob's trouble has been long-fulfilled. Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Since you refuse to explain in your own words exactly what you are intending to say by referencing that passage, I'm just going to assume you agree with me that the time coming when ALL of the dead will be resurrected is the same time that is portrayed in Revelation 20:12-13. Congratulations on becoming an amillennialist, Doug.

The millennial rule of Jesus for the thousand years is the last day.

Where did Jesus give any indication that He was talking about a thousand year time period in John 5:28-29?

The rapture/resurrection is on the eve of the last day.

Where did Jesus say anything about "the eve of the last day" in John 5:28-29?

The resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints is at the beginning of the last day. The resurrection of the rest of the dead at the Great White Throne judgments is at the end of the last day.

Wait a minute. You're not thinking this through. You had said that the last day is the millennial rule of Jesus for the thousand years. The resurrection of the rest of the dead occurs AFTER the thousand years, not at the end of it. This reminds me of how you try to say that Jesus was cut off at the end of the 69th week instead of AFTER the 69th week as scripture says. This shows me that you are willing to do anything to twist scripture to fit your doctrine.

(1) The rapture/resurrection event - before the great tribulation begins.
(2) The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

---------the millennial rule of Christ---------------------------

(3) The resurrection of everyone who do not take part in (1) or (2).

And this lines up with John 5:28-29 how exactly? I don't see any of that referenced in John 5:28-29. Instead, what I see referenced is a time coming when all of the dead will be raised with believers being raised to eternal life and unbelievers being raised to condemnation. At the very most, you could see that as two resurrections, but it would still have to be generally at the same time in order to not contradict what Jesus said (a time is coming when all the dead will be raised). The idea of 3 separate resurrection events is not even remotely there in John 5:28-29.

 

[sovereigngrace]

death defeated by Jesus - on the cross and resurrection.

Victory over death for the dead and living Christians, in the resurrection/rapture.

death and hell destroyed when cast into the lake of fire after the millennial rule of Jesus.

death defeated - victory celebration - death destroyed.

This is all personal opinion. It is not Scripture. Your doctrine cannot abide multiple Scripture. You typically avoid them. For example, Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Let us pause for a moment and consider what is being said here: people marry right up until the second coming, but in the age to come they don’t marry because the saints of God will be adorned with their new glorified eternal bodies. What is more: Christ shows that people die right up until the second coming but in the age to come they don’t die. Why? Because sin, sinners and the wicked are not welcome on the new glorified perfected earth that Christ introduces at the second coming.

The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it.

Jesus outlines in clear tones the incorruptibility and the glory of the future state. This is not the case with the Premillennial and Preterist age to come; marriage, divorce, funerals and mourning continue unabated. This passage forbids both the Premillennial and Preterist theories.

 

[Douggg]

Since you refuse to explain in your own words exactly what you are intending to say by referencing that passage, I'm just going to assume you agree with me that the time coming when ALL of the dead will be resurrected is the same time that is portrayed in Revelation 20:12-13. Congratulations on becoming an amillennialist, Doug.

You can't read - "according their works" in Revelation 20:12-13 (that I highlighted in blue) is the whether they have done good and they who have done evil of John 5:28 (that I also highlighted in blue) - that I should also have to explain it in my owns words?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It makes more sense when one considers the last day as the 1000 year millennial rule of Jesus.

It makes no sense to think that the last day lasts for 1000 years. This is what Jesus said will happen on the last day:

John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Since you think that 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 will happen years before "the 1000 year millennial rule of Jesus" begins then I guess you somehow think that the dead in Christ that Paul references in 1 Thess 4:14-17 will not be raised up at the last day? How does that make any sense?

Also, will people be resurrected continually for 1000 years? Jesus did say that those who believe in Him will be resurrected on the last day. So, was He talking about an actual 24 hour day that is coming at which time the dead will be resurrected or a 1000 year period of time during which the dead will be continually resurrected throughout that time?

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Here, Jesus is talking about unbelievers being condemned on the last day. Is that what you think will happen during the thousand years, which you say is the last day? Or will it happen when the same last 24 hour day arrives when those who believe in Christ are resurrected?

 

[Bob_1000]

It makes more sense when one considers the last day as the 1000 year millennial rule of Jesus.

The time of Jacob's trouble begins when the Antichrist first claims to have achieved God-hood.

Ok so it goes like this in your view. The resurrection of the just happens, then 1000 years later the unjust are raised. That doesn’t line up with Daniel 12 at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You can't read - "according their works" in Revelation 20:12-13 (that I highlighted in blue) is the whether they have done good and they who have done evil of John 5:28 (that I also highlighted in blue) - that I should also have to explain it in my owns words?

You are not addressing my point. Wake up, Doug. Did I say something about what they are judged by? Was it my point to discuss what they are judged by? No. Pay attention to what I'm actually saying instead of what you're imagining me saying. That they are judged by their works is obvious and has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

Instead, my point is about the scope of who will be resurrected once that time Jesus said is coming arrives. Jesus said ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected at that future time that Jesus said is coming. How does this line up with your belief that the dead will be resurrected at 3 entirely different times? That's what I'm trying to get you to address.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Go back to Matthew 24:14-15, the end will come when the abomination of desolation is setup in the Holy Place, triggering the great tribulation.

The resurrection/rapture event is before the great tribulation, i.e. at the end of the age.

How can the end of the age arrive before the great tribulation? That doesn't line up with what Jesus taught about the end of the age.

Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Douggg]

How can the end of the age arrive before the great tribulation? That doesn't line up with what Jesus taught about the end of the age.

Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The saved will inherit eternal life. The unsaved will not.

 

[DavidPT]

Instead, in the next verse (1 Cor 15:24) he said "then the end will come". Your belief contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. That is the point. Stop trying to divert attention away from that point.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming----Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power


Amils apparently conclude, from the time of Christ's coming meant here, until the end meant here, this involves 24 hours or less. I find the thought of that preposterous. This doesn't even remotely allow enough time for numerous things that have to come to pass before verse 24 is entirely fulfilled.

The thousand years aside, let's not even factor them in yet since it is debatable as when they are meaning.

Here are some of the things that have to be fulfilled before verse 24 can be fulfilled. There are too many to list, therefore I'm certain I'll neglect to list some of them. Some of the major events off the top of my head though, would be the following.

Since the dead in Christ rise first, that obviously happens per the coming meant in verse 23. Once that is fulfilled, is it then the end, thus everything pertaining to verse 24 is then fulfilled at that moment? Of course not. At this point in time the lost dead haven't even risen from the dead yet. At this point in time there are still many of the lost remaining on the earth who haven't even physically died yet.

At this point in time Christ and His armies haven't even confronted the beast and it's armies yet. At this point in time, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, this hasn't even taken place yet.

At this point in time the great white throne judgment hasn't even taken place yet. Keeping in mind, that by this point in time, I'm still meaning as of the coming meant in verse 23 and that at the time, the dead in Christ rising first.

All of these things I have listed above, and there's even more things to list which I neglected to list, these things have to be fulfilled after the coming meant in verse 23 and before the end meant in verse 24. To insist that all of these things can be entirely fulfilled within 24 hours or less of the coming meant in verse 23, is preposterous.

Per Amil the last day only involves 24 hours or less. That looks like a major problem to me if the events having to be fulfilled before verse 24 can be fulfilled, that these events require more than just 24 hours or less. Even when God destroyed the world per Noah's flood, He didn't do all that in 24 hours or less. Why not though if He allegedly does everything that has to be fulfilled after the coming meant in verse 23 above in 24 hours or less?

Granted, there are some things that don't add up about Premil. But everything adds up about Amil, though?? One is to seriously believe that? Are we to assume then that Amils are just too prideful to at least admit that some things don't add up about Amil either??

 

[Spiritual Jew]

(1) Your theology forces you to reject the whole contrast between "the last days" (plural) and "the last day" (singular). That is because if you were to accept what the New Testament says about these it would totally negate your doctrine.

(2) The scriptural "last day" is an event that sees the resurrection of the righteous and the destruction of the wicked not a 1000-years age, as you say.

Good point. For him to be consistent he would have to conclude that "the last days" refer to the last thousands of years since he thinks that "the last day" goes on for 1000 years. But, I'm sure he doesn't interpret the last days that way since he has no interest in being consistent.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The saved will inherit eternal life. The unsaved will not.

LOL. That's your entire takeaway from Matthew 13:47-50? When will that happen according to Jesus?

And what exactly did He say will happen to the unsaved at that time? You said what won't happen to them (won't inherit eternal life), but what will happen to them at that time?

 

[Douggg]

And what exactly did He say will happen to the unsaved at that time? You said what won't happen to them (won't inherit eternal life), but what will happen to them at that time?

For the saved at either their resurrection or at the rapture.

For the unsaved at the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming----Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power


Amils apparently conclude, from the time of Christ's coming meant here, until the end meant here, this involves 24 hours or less. I find the thought of that preposterous.

I find the thought of somehow cramming 1000+ years in between His coming and the end to be preposterous. At least we agree on one thing, which is that we each believe that the other person's interpretation of that passage is preposterous.

This doesn't even remotely allow enough time for numerous things that have to come to pass before verse 24 is entirely fulfilled.

The thousand years aside, let's not even factor them in yet since it is debatable as when they are meaning.

Here are some of the things that have to be fulfilled before verse 24 can be fulfilled. There are too many to list, therefore I'm certain I'll neglect to list some of them. Some of the major events off the top of my head though, would be the following.

Since the dead in Christ rise first, that obviously happens per the coming meant in verse 23. Once that is fulfilled, is it then the end, thus everything pertaining to verse 24 is then fulfilled at that moment?

No, that is not what Amil claims. When debating Amils can you for once try to debate against what we actually believe instead of what you imagine that we believe? You make no effort at all to understand what we actually believe. You'd rather just make assumptions. You make so many straw man arguments against Amil that it's just a joke. You waste so much time doing that that it's just unbelievable.

Of course not. At this point in time the lost dead haven't even risen from the dead yet. At this point in time there are still many of the lost remaining on the earth who haven't even physically died yet.

Right. Amil doesn't say otherwise. Verse 24 refers to their physical destruction. It says the end comes after that. And Amil does not say otherwise.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Do you see that? The end doesn't come immediately upon the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Amil does not claim that. Stop trying to act like you know what we believe better than we do. You absolutely do not. You should be embarrassed about these straw man arguments that you waste time making.

What verse 24 indicates is that before the end comes He first will have "destroyed all dominion, authority and power". So, the order is that He comes, the dead in Christ are resurrected, He destroys "all dominion, authority and power" and then the end comes and He delivers the kingdom to the Father. So, we do not see the end coming immediately upon the resurrection of the dead in Christ as you imagine.

At this point in time Christ and His armies haven't even confronted the beast and it's armies yet. At this point in time, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, this hasn't even taken place yet.

At this point in time the great white throne judgment hasn't even taken place yet. Keeping in mind, that by this point in time, I'm still meaning as of the coming meant in verse 23 and that at the time, the dead in Christ rising first.

All of these things I have listed above, and there's even more things to list which I neglected to list, these things have to be fulfilled after the coming meant in verse 23 and before the end meant in verse 24. To insist that all of these things can be entirely fulfilled within 24 hours or less of the coming meant in verse 23, is preposterous.

LOL. You truly crack me up. How many times do I have to tell you that Amils do not believe that the judgment occurs within 24 hours? I believe Paul is referring to the end of the age arriving when Christ comes and destroys all the wicked on the earth. It will be the end of time at that point before the judgment commences. Jesus isn't going to take actual time to judge each person one by one in the way that we understand time now. That would be ridiculous. It will be eternity at that point, so time won't be an issue.

Per Amil the last day only involves 24 hours or less.

Only the things besides the judgment itself. Again, we believe that time will have ended before the judgment commences. Otherwise, try to imagine how long that would take to complete if it happened in the realm of time instead of in the eternal realm. It would take a ridiculously long time, but that's not what we believe will happen since we don't think time will even still exist at that point.

Granted, there are some things that don't add up about Premil. But everything adds up about Amil, though?? One is to seriously believe that?

Yes. The things that you think don't add up for Amil are things that you imagine that we believe, but are not things that we actually believe. How many times do I have to tell you this? A thousand? If so, would that be literally or figuratively a thousand times?

Are we to assume then that Amils are just too prideful to at least admit that some things don't add up about Amil either??

David, what is wrong with you? Why do you say things like this? If there was even one scripture verse that contradicted Amil, could it still be true? No! If there was even one scripture verse that contradicts Premil, can it still be true? No!

So, if some scripture contradicts Amil and some contradicts Premil, as you believe, then how can either one of them be true in your mind? Good grief, man! It would make more sense if you spent your time claiming that neither Premil nor Amil can be true instead of insisting that a view that you acknowledge doesn't line up with some scripture (Premil) is still somehow true, which makes no sense whatsoever.