Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then heaven is also going to end the exact same way and time.
Why?
How many ages are needed for correction? (hopefully only one will be needed)
How many ages are needed for heaven? (hopefully one age will lead to the next)

Saint Steven said:
That's a great point.
Here's what I know about that. Both will be for an age. However the correction will only be for one age. Life will go on for endless ages. One age follows another. Since the age of correction can be completed, it will end.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus says heaven and hell both last the exact same period of time.
Perhaps you are reading something into the text that isn't there? You obviously have a preconception of what it should mean.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The inspiration just hit me...

Hell and heaven
hell and heaven
go together like
yeast and leaven
this I tell you, brother:
you can't have one
without the other

Well, yes you can. Look at Genesis 1:1, where God created the heavens and the earth. Hell is unmentioned as being created then...or later. Can you come up with an account of the creation of Hell in the Bible? No, you can't (I checked). God's Creation is not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with us in the lurch as a contested prize fought over by the two sides, Heaven/Hell, God/Satan. No, the whole shebang is a hierarchy, God, Universe, Earth, Man, Animals, Plants, etc.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
34
Shropshire
✟186,379.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The inspiration just hit me...

Hell and heaven
hell and heaven
go together like
yeast and leaven
this I tell you, brother:
you can't have one
without the other

Well, yes you can. Look at Genesis 1:1, where God created the heavens and the earth. Hell is unmentioned as being created then...or later. Can you come up with an account of the creation of Hell in the Bible? No, you can't (I checked). God's Creation is not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with us in the lurch as a contested prize fought over by the two sides, Heaven/Hell, God/Satan. No, the whole shebang is a hierarchy, God, Universe, Earth, Man, Animals, Plants, etc.

Great point. The Bible would have a very different feel and would be telling a very different story if it started "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and hell". Could it have gone on to say "And He saw that it was good"?
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Genesis 1:1 is just the first clue in a long tale of the salvation of His creation by God. I say "salvation" in the sense of "salvage." God is salvaging His creation instead of trashing it...and starting over. He loves us that much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Great point. The Bible would have a very different feel and would be telling a very different story if it started "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and hell". Could it have gone on to say "And He saw that it was good"?
Have you ever read the N.T.?
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
The everlasting fire might not have been created but it was most certainly prepared by God.
I wonder when those who are "cursed" become "un-cursed" after the judgement? Got a verse for that.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Have you ever read the N.T.?
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
The everlasting fire might not have been created but it was most certainly prepared by God.
I wonder when those who are "cursed" become "un-cursed" after the judgement? Got a verse for that.

There you go again, quoting the KJV as if no other version exists. A four hundred year old king-approved Bible can no longer be claimed to be authoritative. You claim to be a Greek scholar, so you must know that Greek scholarship today is far in advance of that of 1611. At least state what version you are using, please.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There you go again, quoting the KJV as if no other version exists. A four hundred year old king-approved Bible can no longer be claimed to be authoritative. You claim to be a Greek scholar, so you must know that Greek scholarship today is far in advance of that of 1611. At least state what version you are using, please.
I am not a KJVO, I can read the Bible in five languages. In these vss. king Jimmy is about as good as more modern versions.
NIV Matthew 25:41
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."​
My first Greek prof was on the initial NIV translation committee. I have served in Korean language churches since the early '80s. King Jimmy is almost unintelligible to people whose native language is not English. So it is usually my go to version.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,405
1,617
43
San jacinto
✟128,942.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm a lost in this analogy now. What theological point are you trying to make?
The same one you disputed in the previous post. That "mercy to all" in Romans 11:32 can refer to all of mankind without entailing that all mankind can be saved because the offer of the gospel is itself a mercy.
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
34
Shropshire
✟186,379.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Have you ever read the N.T.?
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
The everlasting fire might not have been created but it was most certainly prepared by God.
I wonder when those who are "cursed" become "un-cursed" after the judgement? Got a verse for that.

Yes, I have read the NT. And the OT too where in Jude I read about a fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah which is also described as an eternal fire. But it's not still burning today so how come? It's because it was eternal not in the sense that it would burn forever without consuming the cities but because it was from God and God is eternal. Just like the royal handwave is not royal in itself but because it comes from the Queen.

The same is true of the fire in Matthew 25:41. It's eternal in the sense that it expresses God’s eternal love for us albeit in a tough way. For as we read in Hebrews 12:29 or we would do if we read the OT, the eternal God is also a consuming fire, one that will eventually consume all that is false within us. In no other way could God perfect all of us and express his eternal love for all of us. Similarly for eternal punishment: Like any of God’s eternal actions in time, it's eternal in the sense that it's source is in the eternal God himself.

But if aiõnios means everlasting/eternal in the sense of an unlimited time duration as you continue to insist it does then your interpretation would of course the correct one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was just reading a book that inserts the word "eternal" like used in Matthew 25:46 in other verses containing the NT Greek word "aionios". They make it quite obvious that "eternal" is NOT the correct translation of "aionios". Let's try it here. Try replacing ETERNAL in each example below with the word AGE.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this ETERNAL and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this ETERNAL, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this ETERNAL ? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this ETERNAL understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ETERNAL of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this ETERNAL , and in the ETERNAL to come eternal life.”
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was just reading a book that inserts the word "eternal" like used in Matthew 25:46 in other verses containing the NT Greek word "aionios". They make it quite obvious that "eternal" is NOT the correct translation of "aionios". Let's try it here. Try replacing ETERNAL in each example below with the word AGE.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this ETERNAL and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this ETERNAL, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this ETERNAL ? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this ETERNAL understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ETERNAL of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this ETERNAL , and in the ETERNAL to come eternal life.”
Here are a few more.

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this ETERNAL (aion) knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil ETERNAL (aion), according to the will of God and our Father

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the ETERNAL (aion); and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this ETERNAL. (aion)
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
34
Shropshire
✟186,379.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Here are a few more.

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this ETERNAL (aion) knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil ETERNAL (aion), according to the will of God and our Father

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the ETERNAL (aion); and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this ETERNAL. (aion)

Yes, the only time aionios relates to "an unlimited time duration" is when it refers to the amount of time spent arguing about it's meaning on Christian forums.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, I have read the NT. And the OT too where in Jude I read about a fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah which is also described as an eternal fire. But it's not still burning today so how come? It's because it was eternal not in the sense that it would burn forever without consuming the cities but because it was from God and God is eternal. Just like the royal handwave is not royal in itself but because it comes from the Queen.
Such rubbish. Show me from scripture alone that "eternal fire" is only "eternal" because it is from God? So you think the comment in Jude is the sole determining factor that "aionios" does not mean "eternal?" I have repeatedly posted a list of 26 verses where "aionios" is defined/described by the speaker as "eternal." Here are 3 vss., out of 10, spoken by Jesus which indisputably define/describe "aionios." Never refuted.
John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
Was Jesus lying when He said "aionios life" means "never perish?"
The same is true of the fire in Matthew 25:41. It's eternal in the sense that it expresses God’s eternal love for us albeit in a tough way. For as we read in Hebrews 12:29 or we would do if we read the OT, the eternal God is also a consuming fire, one that will eventually consume all that is false within us. In no other way could God perfect all of us and express his eternal love for all of us. Similarly for eternal punishment: Like any of God’s eternal actions in time, it's eternal in the sense that it's source is in the eternal God himself.
Lots of heterodox nonsense not supported by any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical evidence.
But if aiõnios means everlasting/eternal in the sense of an unlimited time duration as you continue to insist it does then your interpretation would of course the correct one.
Not only have I quoted 26 verses which define/describe "aionios" as eternal, everlasting etc. but I could also quote several passages from the ECF which do likewise.
Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the Romans Chap VII
David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.​
“Eternal life” is paralleled with “incorruptible love.”
Justin The First Apology. Chap XIII
For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.​
“Eternal” is paralleled with “unchangeable.”
So how do we resolve this? Words are often used figuratively in the Bible.
The Greek word "kosmos" e.g. means "world." But according to UR interpretation it can't mean world because it is sometimes refers to things which are NOT the entire planet.
1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​
Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?
Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​
Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"Such rubbish." It only means that I won't read the rest of the post.
I'm amenable to correction. Perhaps you can convince me this quote from Hmm is scriptural.
"Hmm said,...in Jude I read about a fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah which is also described as an eternal fire. But it's not still burning today so how come? It's because it was eternal not in the sense that it would burn forever without consuming the cities but because it was from God and God is eternal."
I'd bin expecting it anyway.
See comment to Lazarus Short above.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'm amenable to correction. Perhaps you can convince me this quote from Hmm is scriptural.
"Hmm said,...in Jude I read about a fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah which is also described as an eternal fire. But it's not still burning today so how come? It's because it was eternal not in the sense that it would burn forever without consuming the cities but because it was from God and God is eternal."

See comment to Lazarus Short above.

My outlook on what Hmm said about Sodom & Gomorrah in Jude is a bit different. He says it's because God it eternal, others say it's because the results are eternal...and on, and on. I think the Fire that burnt S & G, and all the cities around...was something we don't fully understand, so I don't care to pontificate. In any case, God states that He will restore their fortunes. Whether you think it's Scriptural or not is up to you, but be aware that Christian belief covers vast areas, mostly because we see through a glass darkly, I suppose.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
34
Shropshire
✟186,379.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Whether you think it's Scriptural or not is up to you, but be aware that Christian belief covers vast areas, mostly because we see through a glass darkly, I suppose.

I think so too and it's why we need to be very careful before claiming infallible scriptural knowledge when we are asserting something about God that every child can tell you is wrong, such as that He will torment people for ever. Aren't we commanded to believe as little children do?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think so too and it's why we need to be very careful before claiming infallible scriptural knowledge when we are asserting something about God that every child can tell you is wrong, such as that He will torment people for ever. Aren't we commanded to believe as little children do?

Childlike innocence beats any adult agenda. Jesus knows the hearts of both.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.