Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

[Athanasius377]

Indeed, the parish and cathedral I mentioned are extreme outliers. The Episcopal Church is not as liberal as most people think. Although I am not enthusiastic about the plans for a new BCP, in that it looks like the most theologically controversial factions will be involved; they already had a conference on “re-imagining the liturgy” which was filled with bad ideas. The idea of a new prayer book also comes on the heels of an earlier decision by the Church not to replace the 1979 BCP, for fear of repeating the schisms and trauma that occurred with the replacement of the 1928 BCP (which remains in use in a few Episcopal parishes, although technically this is against the rules).

I actually like the 1979 BCP, especially the traditional language recension known as the Anglican Service Book.

I would say it depends greatly on where you are in the US as to how theologically liberal the local Episcopal churches are going to be. I'm in the midwest to upper south. North of me in the Diocese of Southern Ohio they are quite liberal. I used to work across the street from Christ Church Cathedral in Cincinnati and they were always having some event to celebrate deviant sexual minorities or what not.

Yet south of me the Episcopal churches were largely orthodox. There were a few that were notable exceptions typically in the urban areas. In my hometown of Savannah, Georgia St. John's on Madison Square still uses the 1928 BCP. The bishops in Georgia left this congregation alone and it has thrived.
For all the churches that are still orthodox they still suffer from the demographic problems of all the rest of the Mainline denominations meaning they are on average quite small, quite old, and unable to pass on their faith to the next generation. So these small orthodox churches are closing everywhere at a rate much higher than the more liberal counter parts who have large endowments.

Just my two cents.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

rth

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

New Vatican coin worships the pagan deity "Gaia, Mother Earth" - CHRISTIAN NEWS

Ewww.
Even if Francis sees the Pachamama as symbolic and not an actual goddess, the theology is all wrong.
Francis, Francis. Why?!

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Fallout Escalates over ‘Goddess’ Sophia Worship

Paul says that Sophia is Christ. Lord help us.

 

[The Liturgist]

I would say it depends greatly on where you are in the US as to how theologically liberal the local Episcopal churches are going to be. I'm in the midwest to upper south. North of me in the Diocese of Southern Ohio they are quite liberal. I used to work across the street from Christ Church Cathedral in Cincinnati and they were always having some event to celebrate deviant sexual minorities or what not.

Yet south of me the Episcopal churches were largely orthodox. There were a few that were notable exceptions typically in the urban areas. In my hometown of Savannah, Georgia St. John's on Madison Square still uses the 1928 BCP. The bishops in Georgia left this congregation alone and it has thrived.
For all the churches that are still orthodox they still suffer from the demographic problems of all the rest of the Mainline denominations meaning they are on average quite small, quite old, and unable to pass on their faith to the next generation. So these small orthodox churches are closing everywhere at a rate much higher than the more liberal counter parts who have large endowments.

Just my two cents.

So are you aware of any liberal parishes with large endowments that are particularly problematic that I should look into?

 

[PloverWing]

I am compiling a list of parishes in Mainline and other denominations that have unusual and potentially erroneous practices and beliefs.

What is the purpose of your list? At the moment, I can't think of a useful thing to do with a list of churches I don't like or that I disagree with.

A note on two of the entries on your list:

1) From what I can tell, "Christa" was a temporary art exhibit at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, October 2016-March 2017. (See The Christa Project - Cathedral of Saint John the Divine ) I don't know if that matters in your evaluation.

2) As far as I know, Westboro Baptist Church is not affiliated with any Baptist denomination, so I wouldn't count them as "mainline" or "mainstream". They're doing their awful thing off by themselves.

 

[The Liturgist]

What is the purpose of your list? At the moment, I can't think of a useful thing to do with a list of churches I don't like or that I disagree with.

A note on two of the entries on your list:

1) From what I can tell, "Christa" was a temporary art exhibit at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, October 2016-March 2017. (See The Christa Project - Cathedral of Saint John the Divine ) I don't know if that matters in your evaluation.

2) As far as I know, Westboro Baptist Church is not affiliated with any Baptist denomination, so I wouldn't count them as "mainline" or "mainstream". They're doing their awful thing off by themselves.

The goal is to raise awareness of deviant parishes, both mainline and evangelical, so that the public can avoid them, and in the case of parishes with oversight of some kind, positive action can be taken to try to reign them in. So, in summary, harm reduction.

To avoid bias, I am balancing mainline and non-mainline, and liberal and conservative churches. I would say Westboro probably is the worst offender on the list by far, but they still exist and some people may not realize that, or think that since Rev. Fred Phelps was excommunicated and reposed*, it is now a normal Baptist church, when it is not, and it is incredibly easy to get sucked into a bad situation like that. I have no doubt WBC members would lie to get more members, and the Phelps law firm has vast financial resources to keep the church going.

Most of the rest of the churches in this list are a problem in terms of clergy abuse, which is cult like, or else they will shock and offend unsuspecting visitors.

I myself am trying to confirm if the offensive crucifix was removed from St. John the Divine, as I would love to be able to remove them, but for now, I would tell Episcopalians going to New York to go to St. Thomas 5th Ave, which is a wonderful Episcopal parish, a national treasure on a par with Old North Church in Boston and the National Cathedral in Washington** has the best Anglican-style boys choir in the United States (the best Roman Catholic style boys choir I am aware of is Cantores in Ecclesia Deo in Portland, Oregon). T. Tertius Noble was the organist at St. Thomas before moving to York Minster.

*There is some reason to believe he repented, and that is why he was excommunicated shortly before he died. I am praying for his soul. He did do good at times in his life, for example, representing African Americans pro bono in civil rights litigation in the late 1960s.

** Fun fact: more US Presidents have been Episcopalian than members of any other denomination, although the Methodists are closing in...

 

[PloverWing]

The goal is to raise awareness of deviant parishes, both mainline and evangelical, so that the public can avoid them, and in the case of parishes with oversight of some kind, positive action can be taken to try to reign them in. So, in summary, harm reduction.

I suppose that makes sense. I encountered an Anglican parish in Vermont during a visit this past summer that might be a candidate for your list; at least, I'd warn people to be careful about visiting there.

Still, given how many churches there are in the US, scattered across a 3000-mile-wide expanse of country, maybe it's more useful to compile a more general guide, listing some of the code words and symbols that churches use to describe themselves, with their meanings, so that visitors can use your guide to guess what kind of church they're stepping into. One church maybe has a lengthy statement of faith that members must subscribe to; another church has written their own liturgy; this church is "open and affirming"; that church consistently uses the word "men" instead of "people" when describing clergy; this church partners with thus-and-so organization; and so on. All those little secret codes that experienced churchgoers know to look for when trying to find a church that will nurture their spiritual lives instead of crushing them.

 

[Michie]

I am compiling a list of parishes in Mainline and other denominations that have unusual and potentially erroneous practices and beliefs. Presently the list includes the following parishes, local churches, and cathedrals, in alphabetical order:

Bethel Church, Redding, California (New Apostolic Reformation)
This megachurch engages in unusual, and in my opinion, somewhat troubling worship practices, including “grave soaking.”....

I had to look up “grave soaking”. Seems like they are practicing a form of occultism. Downright disturbing.

 

[The Liturgist]

I had to look up “grave soaking”. Seems like they are practicing a form of occultism. Downright disturbing.

Indeed.

 

[Michie]

Indeed.

I read it is actually called “grave sucking”.

 

[The Liturgist]

I suppose that makes sense. I encountered an Anglican parish in Vermont during a visit this past summer that might be a candidate for your list; at least, I'd warn people to be careful about visiting there.

Well if it freaked you out it should obviously be mentioned in this thread, which is an open thread, meaning you can add the experience you had to this thread yourself, as I am not declaring myself the Grand Inquisitor of the American Inquisition, or alternately if you prefer to keep your specific experience private and wish me to summarize your concerns and post it anonymously, you can PM me. I may or may not add it to my list, but this is a sort of Open Source type of deal, and I am, far from being Torquemada, more like Linus Torvalds, in that I have my list of churches I am concerned about, which partially overlaps with those kept by many other cult watchers in the US, for example, Rorate Caeli among Roman Catholics, and Juicy Ecumenism and the now defunct CreedalChristian.blogspot.com** on the right of the UMC and Anglican issues, and Wartburg Watch in a center left position regarding Evangelical churches, and from more of a left wing perspective, documentary film makers like the producers of The Way Down, about an Arian weight loss church, The Vow about NXIVM, and The Cult of Cults, about Heavens Gate*** on HBO, and Wild Wild Country and a documentary on Bikram Yoga on Netflix, and Louis Theroux, who has covered Westboro Baptist Church as well as Scientology.

Still, given how many churches there are in the US, scattered across a 3000-mile-wide expanse of country, maybe it's more useful to compile a more general guide, listing some of the code words and symbols that churches use to describe themselves, with their meanings, so that visitors can use your guide to guess what kind of church they're stepping into. One church maybe has a lengthy statement of faith that members must subscribe to; another church has written their own liturgy; this church is "open and affirming"; that church consistently uses the word "men" instead of "people" when describing clergy; this church partners with thus-and-so organization; and so on. All those little secret codes that experienced churchgoers know to look for when trying to find a church that will nurture their spiritual lives instead of crushing them.

This is a very good idea and I would be interested in your input on such keywords.

*although if compelled to serve in such capacity I want a red robe like Mel Brooks in The History of the World Part I. By the way, two facts worth noting about the Inquisition: it started a decade after the death of St. Dominic and five years after the death of St. Francis of Assisi, and contradicted the stated function of both orders (the Franciscans were heavily involved, contrary to the mythology we see in mass media like The Name of the Rose, where the good Franciscans are horrified by the torturous methods of the evil German inquisitor who is sent to investigate the deaths at a Benedictine monastery after they fail to turn anything up), and it was entirely illegal under ancient canon law, because under the Apostolic canons, priests are forbidden under pain of being defrocked from striking people, whether to produce repentence or for any other reason; no priest can be ordained who has ever killed anyone even by accident.

** My friend and colleague Fr. Owens is still serving, I think, although perhaps he retired; I preferred his blog to StandFirm and VirtueOnline, because he focused on serious issues that should matter to conservatives and liberals alike, although he was conservative, and he is an Episcopalian who believes in the future of the Episcopal Church. The same was true of JuicyEcumenism, but I am very upset that the conservatives in the UMC have adopted the schism plan; Conservatives should take ownership and seek a Scriptural reconciliation and partner with another denomination to accommodate seriously disaffected Methodists, rather than allowing yet another new denomination and new schism to happen.

*** The Way Down is about an Arian weight loss cult run by a woman who actively promoted beating children with glue sticks and other forms of child abuse. She died in a plane crash in February, but her church also still exists. It started as an ostensibly Christian weight loss program which was featured on Oprah (which seems to be a bastion of the occult - Deepak Chopra was a regular guest, and James A Ray, that guy who incompetently and negligently ran a sweatlodge in Arizona, killing 3 or 4 people from complications of hyperthermia, appeared on Oprah, not to mention segments in the 80s promoting the Satanic Panic and occult deprogrammers, some of which turned out to be operating their own cults, did a lot of harm to those of us actually opposed to cults and also the spiritual danger of the occult. I would further argue that the time for a Satanic Panic to make a difference would be the 1960s and 70s, when dangerous cults like Charlie Manson’s gang, the Yippies, Heavens Gate, the People’s Temple, first in San Francisco and then in Jonestown, Guyana, (run by the defrocked Disciples of Christ minister Jim Jones), Scientology, Christian Science, the Mormons, Christian Science, the Bhagwan, the Family International, Jehovahs Witnesses, and others, were at the height of their power and influence.

I think her cult-church is limited to white people but I may be thinking of another, in which case that cult-church deserves an entry.

 

[PloverWing]

I posted a thread about the Vermont church in STR back in August, here: Anglican Catholic Church in Vermont All of my information about the church is second-hand, however; I have not visited the church, and I don't know how much they may have changed since the 2011 newspaper article was published.

I'll think about the keyword list and post a follow-up after I've collected my thoughts. I've been doing some of this already, in helping to advise my children about what to look for in churches, now that they're moving to new locations for college and jobs.

 

[Albion]

I posted a thread about the Vermont church in STR back in August, here: Anglican Catholic Church in Vermont All of my information about the church is second-hand, however; I have not visited the church, and I don't know how much they may have changed since the 2011 newspaper article was published.

I don't know anything about that particular parish, either, but it's still listed on the ACC website as one of their parishes, and under the same name (Christ Covenant).

Why something has not been done about the issue (if indeed nothing has been done) seems odd, but the ACC itself is not like that. It is eccentric, IMHO, for being Anglo-Catholic to an extreme, but nothing like what has reportedly happened with this Vermont parish.

 

[PloverWing]

Why something has not been done about the issue (if indeed nothing has been done) seems odd, but the ACC itself is not like that. It is eccentric, IMHO, for being Anglo-Catholic to an extreme, but nothing like what has reportedly happened with this Vermont parish.

Yes, that's what emerged from the discussion in STR. The parish in Marshfield seems to have been doing some weird stuff, but it should not be taken as representative of the ACC as a whole.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way, since we seem to be going more broad, maybe explanations as to why some denominations who are not considered Christian on CF.com are in fact not Christian, but are rather really seriously dangerous, most especially the J/Ws and Christian Science, which ban blood transfusions and discourage medical care altogether, respectively. Fortunately, Christian Science is dying off, but I consider them culpable in thousands of deaths, including that of beloved puppet artist Jim Henson, whose creative team not only gave us the Muppets and Sesame Street (I love the muppets, especially Waldorf and Statler), but in partnership with Lucasfilm, working with pupeteer Frank Oz, gave us Yoda. So Jim Henson was kind of like a competent and non evil version of the villain from Being John Malkovich, the unsuccessful puppeteer played by John Cusack. But he grew up in Christian Science, and as a result, even though he had resigned in 1975 (his memorial services were at the Cathedral Churches of St. John the Divine in NYC, and St. Paul’s in The City of London, so I would assume he became Episcopalian or Anglican or was somehow linked with them?), he did not feel the need to go to a doctor when he had a severe sore throat. He did not go to the hospital even when he started to cough up blood on the morning of his death, and told his wife he thought he was dying; two hours later he was persuaded to take a taxi to the hospital, where he had a respiratory arrest shortly after arrival and was put on a ventillator; it turned out his death was a massive strep throat infection that if treated earlier, would have likely have had no long term impacts on his health.

To me, this suggests that even former Christian Science adherents are at critical risk due to brainwashing; Christian Science church services do not jave a sermon, but instead consist of a member who reads the Bible and another member who reads a corresponding chapter of Mary Baked Eddy’s Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. This pattern is hypnotic and can due to the repetition induce a trance, as any Eastern Orthodox or, for that matter, Anglican Benedictine monk can tell you (I am so sad the OHC Mount Calvary monastery in Santa Barbara closed...)

We also should not forget how huge Christian Science was as recently as the early 90s. I remember in my youth seeing Christian Science Reading Rooms in strip malls, and I can remember just 15 years ago The Christian Science Monitor was a well respected newspaper. But the stories kept breaking about Christian Science Practitioners, who you pay to pray, failing to procure emergency medical treatment for children and sick adults who later died, and one even wrote in her official Christian Science Practitioner’s Notebook “I think (the patient) is going to pass tonight.” Which happened, without her taking any action to stop it.

Samuel Clemens, also known by his riparian psuedonym Mark Twain, which is a call made on riverboats when in water of safe depth, without risk of running aground or worse, crashing on a snag (dead submerged trees killed more beautiful paddlewheelers than anything else on the Mississippi), wrote at length 120 years ago trying to warn people that Mary Baker Eddy was a dangerous fraud, and it seems we only got the message 100 years too late, and even now, there are still hundreds of Christian Science parishes and reading rooms in operation - they may be down, but they are not out, and I think the tragic death of Jim Henson raises the real specter of brainwashing.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Side question: What in E Orthodoxy induces a trance and is it intentional?

By the way, since we seem to be going more broad, maybe explanations as to why some denominations who are not considered Christian on CF.com are in fact not Christian, but are rather really seriously dangerous, most especially the J/Ws and Christian Science, which ban blood transfusions and discourage medical care altogether, respectively. Fortunately, Christian Science is dying off, but I consider them culpable in thousands of deaths, including that of beloved puppet artist Jim Henson, whose creative team not only gave us the Muppets and Sesame Street (I love the muppets, especially Waldorf and Statler), but in partnership with Lucasfilm, working with pupeteer Frank Oz, gave us Yoda. So Jim Henson was kind of like a competent and non evil version of the villain from Being John Malkovich, the unsuccessful puppeteer played by John Cusack. But he grew up in Christian Science, and as a result, even though he had resigned in 1975 (his memorial services were at the Cathedral Churches of St. John the Divine in NYC, and St. Paul’s in The City of London, so I would assume he became Episcopalian or Anglican or was somehow linked with them?), he did not feel the need to go to a doctor when he had a severe sore throat. He did not go to the hospital even when he started to cough up blood on the morning of his death, and told his wife he thought he was dying; two hours later he was persuaded to take a taxi to the hospital, where he had a respiratory arrest shortly after arrival and was put on a ventillator; it turned out his death was a massive strep throat infection that if treated earlier, would have likely have had no long term impacts on his health.

To me, this suggests that even former Christian Science adherents are at critical risk due to brainwashing; Christian Science church services do not jave a sermon, but instead consist of a member who reads the Bible and another member who reads a corresponding chapter of Mary Baked Eddy’s Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. This pattern is hypnotic and can due to the repetition induce a trance, as any Eastern Orthodox or, for that matter, Anglican Benedictine monk can tell you (I am so sad the OHC Mount Calvary monastery in Santa Barbara closed...)

We also should not forget how huge Christian Science was as recently as the early 90s. I remember in my youth seeing Christian Science Reading Rooms in strip malls, and I can remember just 15 years ago The Christian Science Monitor was a well respected newspaper. But the stories kept breaking about Christian Science Practitioners, who you pay to pray, failing to procure emergency medical treatment for children and sick adults who later died, and one even wrote in her official Christian Science Practitioner’s Notebook “I think (the patient) is going to pass tonight.” Which happened, without her taking any action to stop it.

Samuel Clemens, also known by his riparian psuedonym Mark Twain, which is a call made on riverboats when in water of safe depth, without risk of running aground or worse, crashing on a snag (dead submerged trees killed more beautiful paddlewheelers than anything else on the Mississippi), wrote at length 120 years ago trying to warn people that Mary Baker Eddy was a dangerous fraud, and it seems we only got the message 100 years too late, and even now, there are still hundreds of Christian Science parishes and reading rooms in operation - they may be down, but they are not out, and I think the tragic death of Jim Henson raises the real specter of brainwashing.

 

[Paidiske]

I'll think about the keyword list and post a follow-up after I've collected my thoughts. I've been doing some of this already, in helping to advise my children about what to look for in churches, now that they're moving to new locations for college and jobs.

This part of the conversation interests me, and I'd be willing to try to contribute to that part of it, too.

Slightly off topic, but your comment reminded me of an interesting comment I thought some in this thread would appreciate; my daughter has just turned ten. Recently, I started a conversation with her about what makes a good church, wanting to encourage her to reflect on her experience of different places. And her reply was "a small number of people." This surprised me (I wondered if it was about autism or social difficulty or something else), so I followed up with questions as to why. And my child looked at me very solemnly and explained that there was less chance of an outbreak of the virus.

Lord have mercy, this is what the pandemic has done to our children!

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Side question: What in E Orthodoxy induces a trance and is it intentional?

I am assuming that Liturgist is referencing the Jesus Prayer.

Theophan the Recluse, a 19th century Russian spiritual writer, distinguishes three levels in the saying of the Prayer:

1. 
   It begins as oral prayer or prayer of the lips, a simple recitation which Theophan defines as prayers' "verbal expression and shape." Although very important, this level of prayer is still external to us and thus only the first step, for "the essence or soul of prayer is within a man's mind and heart."
   
   
2. As we enter more deeply into prayer, we reach a level at which we begin to pray without distraction.Theophan remarks that at this point, "the mind is focused upon the words" of the Prayer, "speaking them as if they were our own."
   
   
3. The third and final level is prayer of the heart. At this stage prayer is no longer something we do but who we are. Such prayer, which is a gift of the Spirit, is to return to the Father as did the prodigal son (Luke 15:32). The prayer of the heart is the prayer of adoption, when "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit that cries 'Abba, Father!'" (Gal. 4:6).

When I have really focused on the Jesus Prayer, it would come to mind when I'm not thinking about it, if that makes any sense.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Do you consider this 'trance' divinely induced?

I am assuming that Liturgist is referencing the Jesus Prayer.

Theophan the Recluse, a 19th century Russian spiritual writer, distinguishes three levels in the saying of the Prayer:

1. 
   It begins as oral prayer or prayer of the lips, a simple recitation which Theophan defines as prayers' "verbal expression and shape." Although very important, this level of prayer is still external to us and thus only the first step, for "the essence or soul of prayer is within a man's mind and heart."
   
   
2. As we enter more deeply into prayer, we reach a level at which we begin to pray without distraction.Theophan remarks that at this point, "the mind is focused upon the words" of the Prayer, "speaking them as if they were our own."
   
   
3. The third and final level is prayer of the heart. At this stage prayer is no longer something we do but who we are. Such prayer, which is a gift of the Spirit, is to return to the Father as did the prodigal son (Luke 15:32). The prayer of the heart is the prayer of adoption, when "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit that cries 'Abba, Father!'" (Gal. 4:6).

When I have really focused on the Jesus Prayer, it would come to mind when I'm not thinking about it, if that makes any sense.