Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

Have you experienced anything similar?

I've been in a Pentecostal church for over 30 years. I have lots of stories.

But as a precursor, I was raised Protestant Evangelical, but my parents were supportive of Charismatic churches. They attended on evenings and weekend days. My Mom had several shoe boxes full of message (preaching) cassette tapes. (remember those? - lol)

My first step was to seek the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:5) And especially the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Being from an Evangelical background, I wanted solid biblical proof of everything. My new church-mates weren't as concerned about this as I was. So, answers were hard to get. I mostly had to find my own way. I started attending a church to learn about these things. But to my surprise, they put me to work teaching adult Sunday School. Say what? - lol

Anyway, I had to learn as I went. I'll share one thing in this post, and maybe more later. I don't want to go on and on.

I spent a lot of time seeking God in worship on Sunday mornings. This usually meant raised, or extended hands. At one point I noticed that my palms felt warm when I held them out. I shook them, thinking I was losing blood circulation. Nope. I finally realized that it was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It was like delicate flames on my hands. Like warm candle flames. A regular occurrence ever since.

This became useful when I began praying for the sick. Those I was praying for could feel the heat. (while they received healing) I wondered if I had a healing ministry. (nope) But I do obey the call when asked.

 

[Saint Steven]

When God casts people into the Lake of fire, which the Bible definitely says that He will definitely do, He is not being a monster. He is being Loving, be cause God is Love. The people who He is casting into the lake of fire are the real monsters. Why would you think that God would want to allow evil monsters into Heaven?

Wow. Anyone that casts conscious humans into a fire is a monster. A God of love would do no such thing, regardless of what you have been told.

Hmm said: ↑
For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

 

[Hmm]

I spent a lot of time seeking God in worship on Sunday mornings. This usually meant raised, or extended hands. At one point I noticed that my palms felt warm when I held them out. I shook them, thinking I was losing blood circulation. Nope. I finally realized that it was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It was like delicate flames on my hands. Like warm candle flames. A regular occurrence ever since.

This became useful when I began praying for the sick. Those I was praying for could feel the heat. (while they received healing) I wondered if I had a healing ministry. (nope) But I do obey the call when asked.

That's amazing, thanks.

 

[Hmm]

Wow. Anyone that casts conscious humans into a fire is a monster. A God of love would do no such thing, regardless of what you have been told.

Hmm said: ↑
For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

It's an example of Orwellian doublespeak: hate is love.

 

[Der Alte]

Wow. Anyone that casts conscious humans into a fire is a monster. A God of love would do no such thing, regardless of what you have been told.
Hmm said: ↑
For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

Do you have an Old Testament?

Genesis 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants* of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.​

* All the inhabitants; Men, women, children, infants, old, young. All died in a fire storm.

 

[Saint Steven]

... The feeling lasted for about three weeks and then faded but I have subsequently had moments of similar closeness with God (and even since I recently embraced universalism!)

Yes, there is something so freeing about UR. The universal aspect helps me to see humanity as an us, instead of an "us vs. them" mentality. To understand that the stranger I see on the street is not some God-forsaken, hell-bound wretch that's not even worth my time. But rather a child of God that will one day be restored to a right relationship with God, in their time. I see value instead of worthlessness.

 

[Fervent]

A God of love would do no such thing, regardless of what you have been told.

Where are you getting your definition of "love?" What objective standard are you applying to dictate what a loving God would and would not do?

 

[Hmm]

Where are you getting your definition of "love?" What objective standard are you applying to dictate what a loving God would and would not do?

Sounds to me like you're asking for a computer's definition of love. I doubt anyone can help you there

 

[Hmm]

Yes, there is something so freeing about UR. The universal aspect helps me to see humanity as an us, instead of an "us vs. them" mentality. To understand that the stranger I see on the street is not some God-forsaken, hell-bound wretch that's not even worth my time. But rather a child of God that will one day be restored to a right relationship with God, in their time. I see value instead of worthlessness.

Absolutely. I find this quote from Gregory of Nyssa very inspiring:

“As mediator between God and man [1 Tim 2.5]. He who is in the Father and has lived with men accomplishes intercession. Christ unites all mankind to himself, and to the Father through himself, as the Lord says in the Gospel, ‘As you, Father, are in me, and I am in you, that they may be one in us’ [Jn 17.21]. This clearly shows that having united himself to us, he who is in the Father effects our union with this very same Father.”

This idea of Christ as a mediator ( ladder, bridge, intercessor) between God and man is a very powerful one when understood more fully. Christ never failed us and He will not fail in this role of drawing us all into union with the Father.

 

[Saint Steven]

Where are you getting your definition of "love?" What objective standard are you applying to dictate what a loving God would and would not do?

It's pretty obvious that if someone wants to incinerate you, they hate you. And if they want to incinerate you for all eternity... what could be more hateful?

Time to wake up and smell the burning flesh. Hate does NOT equal love.

 

[Hmm]

Time to wake up and smell the burning flesh.

lol.

 

[Fervent]

It's pretty obvious that if someone wants to incinerate you, they hate you. And if they want to incinerate you for all eternity... what could be more hateful?

Time to wake up and smell the burning flesh. Hate does NOT equal love.

Oh? So the mother who allows her son to touch a hot stove hates her son? Or the father who allows his son to live on the streets with no food and no shelter unless he gives up heroin must hate him, too?

Love is complex, and sometimes what is in a person's best interest is allowing harm to befall them. If a human parent can allow harm to befall a loved one and remain loving, how is God allowing harm to come to a loved human being any less loving?

 

[Saint Steven]

lol.

The "get it?" factor is... how can I say this politely? (not sure)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Time to wake up and smell the burning flesh.

 

[Hmm]

The "get it?" factor is... how can I say this politely? (not sure)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Time to wake up and smell the burning flesh.

That was very polite.

Some won't/can't get it in this life but the Good News is that they will in the next.

 

[Saint Steven]

That was very polite.

Some won't/can't get it in this life but the Good News is that they will in the next.

Until then we need to be patient with them. (not easy, I know - lol)

 

[Hmm]

Until then we need to be patient with them. (not easy, I know - lol)

These are just lessons to remind us that life is stern and life is earnest and that into each life some rain must fall etc, all designed to make us more soulful. My soul's probably about eight feet tall at the moment and I imagine yours is a lot more than that

 

[Saint Steven]

These are just lessons to remind us that life is stern and life is earnest and that into each life some rain must fall etc, all designed to make us more soulful. My soul's probably about eight feet tall at the moment and I imagine yours is a lot more than that

Yup. All that.
I try to remember that they are victims of some very bad teaching. And I believed the same thing five years ago and argued as hard as they do. So... I certainly want to cut them some slack. (as the saying goes) I hope that idiom works the same way on your side of the pond. - lol

 

[Hmm]

Yup. All that.
I try to remember that they are victims of some very bad teaching. And I believed the same thing five years ago and argued as hard as they do. So... I certainly want to cut them some slack. (as the saying goes) I hope that idiom works the same way on your side of the pond. - lol

Yes, we use the same expression here, and you're right of course.

I would like to understand the mindset better so that I can cut more slack. I've never believed in ECT and I can't imagine doing so but it clearly plays a foundational part in many people's faith. It's as if the very reason for Jesus' existence and death was to keep us from ECT so if you do away with ECT your faith won't work anymore.

Did you used to believe something like that and, if so, how did you keep your faith going when you jettisoned your belief in ECT? Or what was it that changed your mindset? If that's not too personal a question...

 

[Ceallaigh]

When God casts people into the Lake of fire, which the Bible definitely says that He will definitely do, He is not being a monster. He is being Loving, be cause God is Love. The people who He is casting into the lake of fire are the real monsters. Why would you think that God would want to allow evil monsters into Heaven?

Remember that you are one of the evil monsters that only by the grace of God will be let into heaven.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Do you have an Old Testament?

Genesis 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants* of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.​

* All the inhabitants; Men, women, children, infants, old, young. All died in a fire storm.

How does that come remotely close to everlasting torture?