Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

The wicked will be destroyed. Hell is the grave ..... all sleep a dormant sleep there until Jesus returns then the 1st resurrection happens (of the saved) later the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) happens.

No such thing as a forever burning place.

You are an Annihilationist then?

Do you believe that the vast majority are predestined to be incinerated?

 

[Der Alte]

The wicked will be destroyed. Hell is the grave ..... all sleep a dormant sleep there until Jesus returns then the 1st resurrection happens (of the saved) later the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) happens.
No such thing as a forever burning place.

I guess Jesus was a liar then.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"​

John must be a liar too.

Revelation 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[eleos1954]

You are an Annihilationist then?

Do you believe that the vast majority are predestined to be incinerated?

nope ... we have choice

The Bible nowhere teaches that God has preordained or predestined anyone to be lost.

“Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! Isaiah 45:22 NKJV

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved…1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV

“All” has to mean “all.” If God wants all humankind to be saved, that has to mean that He does not want anyone to be lost. Therefore He has not chosen or predestined anyone to be lost.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself…Ephesians 1:5 NKJV

These and Romans 8:30 are the only times predestination is mentioned in the NKJV.

God’s predestination always leads to salvation. Nowhere does the Bible teach that anyone is predestined to be lost. Some people reason within themselves, independently from Scripture, that since God knows who is going to be lost, that takes free choice away. But Scripture teaches we are all predestined to be saved. Therefore the only way to be lost is by using our God-given free choice to be lost, totally independent of God’s plan.

After the Last Judgment, all unsaved human beings, all fallen angels (all of the damned) and Satan himself will be totally destroyed so as to not exist.

 

[Hmm]

But Scripture teaches we are all predestined to be saved. Therefore the only way to be lost is by using our God-given free choice to be lost, totally independent of God’s plan.

That's self-contradictory. You first say that we're all predestinated to be saved i.e. that God has ordained that everyone will be saved, and then you say that our salvation is dependent on our action because we can choose to be lost (although why anyone would want to do this isn't clear). Both statements can't be true.

 

[Saint Steven]

nope ... we have choice

The Bible nowhere teaches that God has preordained or predestined anyone to be lost.

It is inferred, or concluded, in the fact that some were the Elect, predestined for salvation. What becomes of the rest? Those who weren't the Elect, those who weren't predestined. They were predestined for something else, but what?

Countless billions that had never heard of Christ, those who were never presented with a decision. Did they have a choice?

Saint Steven said: ↑
You are an Annihilationist then?

Do you believe that the vast majority are predestined to be incinerated?

 

[Saint Steven]

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved…1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV

“All” has to mean “all.” If God wants all humankind to be saved, that has to mean that He does not want anyone to be lost. Therefore He has not chosen or predestined anyone to be lost.

We are mostly in agreement on that point. Although, I would only apply predestination for salvation to this life. In the end, everyone will be saved. (in the afterlife) This scripture refers to the order.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Hmm]

Although, I would only apply predestination for salvation to this life. In the end, everyone will be saved. (in the afterlife) This scripture refers to the order.

Yes, some may be predestined but all are destined.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Thomas Talbott in The Inescapable Love of God: gives a good analysis of this passage and what it says about predestination/destiny.

"It is as if Paul has in mind the image of a procession, and he quickly lists three segments of the procession: At the head of the procession is Christ, the first fruits; behind him are those who belong to Christ at his coming; and behind them are the remainder— that is, those at the end of the procession— who are there when Christ “hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power” …

even if we understand “then the end” to mean something like “then comes the end of the ages or the end of redemptive history,” Paul makes one point clear: the end will not come until Christ’s victory and triumph are complete; that is, until “he has put all his enemies under his feet” (vs. 25), until he has destroyed the last enemy, which is death (vs. 26), and until “all things are subjected to him” (vs. 28)

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, some may be predestined but all are destined.

That's a great way to say it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thomas Talbott in The Inescapable Love of God: gives a good analysis of this passage and what it says about predestination/destiny.

"It is as if Paul has in mind the image of a procession, and he quickly lists three segments of the procession: At the head of the procession is Christ, the first fruits; behind him are those who belong to Christ at his coming; and behind them are the remainder— that is, those at the end of the procession— who are there when Christ “hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power” …

even if we understand “then the end” to mean something like “then comes the end of the ages or the end of redemptive history,” Paul makes one point clear: the end will not come until Christ’s victory and triumph are complete; that is, until “he has put all his enemies under his feet” (vs. 25), until he has destroyed the last enemy, which is death (vs. 26), and until “all things are subjected to him” (vs. 28)

I love this scripture, but the list has always been a bit hazy to me.
The main point is that ALL will be made alive, but each in turn. (meaning not all at once) The order of events seems a bit unclear though.

The term "the firstfruits" is unclear. Earlier in the chapter it refers to Christ, but as an individual within the larger group. That is, the leader of the procession that follows. So, it is unclear to me if "the firstfruits" is still in reference to Christ as leading the way, or in reference to the predestined in this life. Backing up to verse 22, does "made alive" refer to our resurrection from Hades? Are we not already "made alive" in this life (John 5:24) and bound for heaven? (skip Hades)

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Hmm]

I love this scripture, but the list has always been a bit hazy to me.
The main point is that ALL will be made alive, but each in turn. (meaning not all at once) The order of events seems a bit unclear though.

The term "the firstfruits" is unclear. Earlier in the chapter it refers to Christ, but as an individual within the larger group. That is, the leader of the procession that follows. So, it is unclear to me if "the firstfruits" is still in reference to Christ as leading the way, or in reference to the predestined in this life. Backing up to verse 22, does "made alive" refer to our resurrection from Hades? Are we not already "made alive" in this life (John 5:24) and bound for heaven? (skip Hades)

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

I find it hazy too. The idea that there is a hierarchy of rewards in heaven has always sounded odd to me.

I don't know enough to be able to give a meaningful answer to any of your questions. But I personally don't care too much how universal salvation happens, only that it does, and I have no doubt that scripture says it does.

I think like you that we are already "made alive" in this life by the Holy Spirit and are heaven bound. I believe that those who do not receive the Holy Spirit in this life (and I don't believe we know exactly what that means or how we can assess it), they will eventually freely receive it in the next life - the life after death. Eventually, in the "life after life after death" as NT Wright puts it, we will all have been "made alive" as Scripture makes clear. It's that that some people find so objectionable. They want to be rewarded for their faith and others punished for their lack of faith but this is treating faith as a work and Christianity is not a works-based faith as, ironically, they would agree with. Faith is by grace alone.

So, to sum up, I'm hazy on the details of how we get there, but I believe we all will.

 

[Saint Steven]

I find it hazy too. The idea that there is a hierarchy of rewards in heaven has always sounded odd to me.

I don't know enough to be able to give a meaningful answer to any of your questions. But I personally don't care too much how universal salvation happens, only that it does, and I have no doubt that scripture says it does.

This is a good discussion, thanks.

I'm not sure if the haziness about the order of events was caused by poor, or biased translation work, or whether the original texts were rather hazy as well. ??? (difficult to translate)

But ultimately, since ALL will be made alive (each in turn), that is enough. We'll get further direction upon arrival.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think like you that we are already "made alive" in this life by the Holy Spirit and are heaven bound. I believe that those who do not receive the Holy Spirit in this life (and I don't believe we know exactly what that means or how we can assess it), they will eventually freely receive it in the next life - the life after death.

Yes, this is significant.
The indwelling Spirit and any manifestations of the Holy Spirit that we experience really set us apart in this life. Described as a guarantee of what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14) A seal of ownership. A personal relationship with God.

 

[Hmm]

I'm not sure if the haziness about the order of events was caused by poor, or biased translation work, or whether the original texts were rather hazy as well. ??? (difficult to translate)

But ultimately, since ALL will be made alive (each in turn), that is enough. We'll get further direction upon arrival.

Yes, reminds of Woody Allen's line "Ninety percent of success is just showing up." And even if we don't show up, God will come and drag us out of bed and take us there himself.

A seal of ownership. A personal relationship with God.

Yes, I had a very real sense of this sealing at my baptism.

 

[Saint Steven]

So, to sum up, I'm hazy on the details of how we get there, but I believe we all will.

Right, I agree.

And this is the struggle we have in explaining to our unconvinced spiritual siblings. They, understandably, want details about how this happens, how it all works. Unfortunately, those details are not clear.

However, the final outcome is clear enough. That's the best we have to go on. That, and the other popular conclusions demean what we know to be true about God. He is NOT the cosmic tyrant we are being presented with.

In the same way that all died in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I had a very real sense of this sealing at my baptism.

Can you share more about what happened? That's a powerful declaration.

Saint Steven said: ↑
A seal of ownership. A personal relationship with God.

 

[Hmm]

And this is the struggle we have in explaining to our unconvinced spiritual siblings. They, understandably, want details about how this happens, how it all works. Unfortunately, those details are not clear.

It's the same as with the creation of the universe. The Bible tells us that God created, which is what we need to know, it but it doesn't tell us what the cosmological constant is. That's a nice to know, and physicists are working on it.

That, and the other popular conclusions demean what we know to be true about God. He is NOT the cosmic tyrant we are being presented with

No, He's not, He is as He is in Jesus, but some people will be disobedient without a tyrant in charge and so need a God like that in order to have some kind of order in their life. And there's early and social conditioning too.

 

[Hmm]

Can you share more about what happened? That's a powerful declaration.

I had an adult confirmation in a Church of England, following a preparatory programme. As it was C of E it was done by a Bishop and quite formal. I was really just expecting a piece of paper but when he sealed me with the chrism oil on my forehead I had a distinct sense of a holy presence within me - the Holy Spirit. I felt so good and remember thinking that if I could feel the Holy Spirit's presence like this for the rest of my life, life would be productive, peaceful and easy, whatever knocks it threw at me. But I knew at the same time that it couldn't last - the Holy Spirit would stay with me, but I wouldn't be so effortlessly and vividly aware of him. The feeling lasted for about three weeks and then faded but I have subsequently had moments of similar closeness with God (and even since I recently embraced universalism!)

Have you experienced anything similar?

 

[Saint Steven]

No, He's not, He is as He is in Jesus, but some people will be disobedient without a tyrant in charge and so need a God like that in order to have some kind of order in their life. And there's early and social conditioning too.

That is such an incredibly dangerous position to put oneself in. (spiritual extortion) If following God is not a willful act, how can it be salvation? Yikes!

Saint Steven said: ↑
That, and the other popular conclusions demean what we know to be true about God. He is NOT the cosmic tyrant we are being presented with

 

[Hmm]

That is such an incredibly dangerous position to put oneself in. (spiritual extortion) If following God is not a willful act, how can it be salvation? Yikes!

Saint Steven said: ↑
That, and the other popular conclusions demean what we know to be true about God. He is NOT the cosmic tyrant we are being presented with

I agree. It's just that some people's conception.of salvation is that it means "not going to hell" rather than being united to the God we see in Jesus. A very impoverished view of God indeed!

 

[Freed Man]

For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

When God casts people into the Lake of fire, which the Bible definitely says that He will definitely do, He is not being a monster. He is being Loving, be cause God is Love. The people who He is casting into the lake of fire are the real monsters. Why would you think that God would want to allow evil monsters into Heaven?