Are Jews still God's Chosen People ?

[Clare73]

You're confusing me again. . .Romans 13:8-10 states it is fulfilled in (Christ's) law of love.

And so, we return to which law is being spoken of. It is now the law of Christ the apostles Paul speaks in Scriptures of the NT, that is fulfilled by loving one another.

The law of Moses could never be fulfilled only by loving our neighbors as ourselves, because without circumcision on the eighth day, the male would be cut off from the people.

But the NT does not seem to treat all the Mosaic law as a whole.
Romans 13:8-10 specifically states which of the Decalogue the law of Christ fulfills. Christ's law does not fulfill the whole law.
Galatians 4:10 specifies which of the ceremonial law is being observed.
In neither of these cases, are the regulations called just "the law" and treated as a single unit.

The law of Christ is fulfilled by loving one another, because there is no outward circumcision to obey.

Circumcision was necessary to enter the covenant of Abraham, to which the Mosaic covenant was simply a temporary addition (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20).
Circumcision was a sign (Genesis 17:11) of putting/cutting off the flesh (consecration to God)--as I see baptism to be in the new covenant (Colossians 2:11-12), which consecration was the condition of the Abrahamic covenant to be their God (Genesis 17:7), and which sign was then reiterated in the purification laws of Sinai because they were still under the Abrahamic covenant.

I'm not getting the connection between circumcision and love of neighbor here.

As well as many other handwritten ordinances and statutes and commandments in the law of Moses.

The law of Moses was only going to ever be fullfed by one person: the God of Israel that gave it to Moses: the Word made flesh.

We are not obedient to the 'Decalogue'. We are obedient only the law of Christ. The doctrine of Christ. The apostles' doctrine and rule of Christ, which they wrote down personally from Christ.

How about this:
NT teaching is found only in NT Scriptures. NT Scriptures are written only by the apostles.

If it is NT Scripture, it is therefore NT teaching, and the NT teaches the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

In the Scriptures of the apostles, we cease reading of 'Moses' and the 'law' of Moses, except it is specifically written as such. Otherwise, our understanding ought always be reading of Christ and His law in NT Scriptures.
Even as we cease to read in NT Scriptures of the 'Jews' being the chosen people of God and seed of promise by Abraham, so we cease to be reading of the law of Moses as the 'law' of God taught in the NT scriptures.

I really like your unified view.

 

[visionary]

Actually, without the people of the first covenant rejecting the Son, there would not have been a NT. And going even further back, if they had not turned from the covenant of promise offered by the Lord in Person on Sinai (Rev 19:3-8, 20:18-21), then there had been no first covenant made by law. (Heb 7:16)

The first covenant made by law was never made to be everlasting, but only a proving to God's people, that without faith it is impossible to please God by law.

The only everlasting covenant of God is that of promise by faith, which began with Abraham, and is completed with Christ: the promised seed of Abraham.

Understanding the process of sacrifice and its place in the removing of sin is explained in ritual and in temple services, and the accomplishment is played out in the feasts.

 

[visionary]

But you are saying he hasn't fulfilled the day of atonement.

As revealed in the Book of Hebrews there is still more for Yeshua to do as our High Priest in the heavenly courts, and Revelation reveals what happens in heaven reflects what is happening on earth.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Understanding the process of sacrifice and its place in the removing of sin is explained in ritual and in temple services, and the accomplishment is played out in the feasts.

What does that mean? Like arena style?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

As revealed in the Book of Hebrews there is still more for Yeshua to do as our High Priest in the heavenly courts, and Revelation reveals what happens in heaven reflects what is happening on earth.

Actually what He has to do is bring the bull’s blood out and then the scapegoat is set free.

 

[Hawkins]

Whether today's Jews are considered God's chosen people is only up to God to judge and define, not man. The Bible itself never said that the Jews as a whole is not a people of God.

That said. In my own opinion God won't give up on those Jews keep being loyal to Him. That's why the saying that Israel will be saved in the end. How so is basically none of our business.

From a lawful/legal point of view, all God's chosen witnesses are deemed savable, unless you are someone like Balaam. I believe that this is part of a covenant for God's prophets and eyewitnesses stand out and to be saved through the last resort. That's actually how David and even Paul are saved as a chosen witness. While the Bible says that Israel as a whole was chosen as God's witness.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Whether today's Jews are considered God's chosen people is only up to God to judge and define, not man. The Bible itself never said that the Jews as a whole is not a people of God.

That said. In my own opinion God won't give up on those Jews keep being loyal to Him. That's why the saying that Israel will be saved in the end. How so is basically none of our business.

From a lawful/legal point of view, all God's chosen witnesses are deemed savable, unless you are someone like Balaam. I believe that this is part of a covenant for God's prophets and eyewitnesses stand out and to be saved through the last resort. That's actually how David and even Paul are saved as a chosen witness. While the Bible says that Israel as a whole was chosen as God's witness.

I still don’t get why Messianics, Judaism is a sect.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

or to be honest Born Agains and Catholics matured to T vs t

 

[ralliann]

As revealed in the Book of Hebrews there is still more for Yeshua to do as our High Priest in the heavenly courts, and Revelation reveals what happens in heaven reflects what is happening on earth.

The book of Hebrews shows Christ as High priest making one sacrifice of himself on the day of atonement.
Ex 30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Whether today's Jews are considered God's chosen people is only up to God to judge and define, not man. The Bible itself never said that the Jews as a whole is not a people of God.

Correct. . .there is still a believing remnant who are part of the one
olive tree of God's people, the NT church, in whom the irrevocable call and gifts to Israel are being fullfilled.

But Jews are now on the same footing as Gentiles; i.e. salvation is only by faith and trust in the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e. "not guilty," declared righteous.

 

[Clare73]

I still don’t get why Messianics, Judaism is a sect.

A lot of Messianics believe in keeping much of the ceremonial law.

Orthodox Judism is not a sect, it is anti-Christian--rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Whether today's Jews are considered God's chosen people is only up to God to judge and define, not man. The Bible itself never said that the Jews as a whole is not a people of God.

That said. In my own opinion God won't give up on those Jews keep being loyal to Him. That's why the saying that Israel will be saved in the end. How so is basically none of our business.

From a lawful/legal point of view, all God's chosen witnesses are deemed savable, unless you are someone like Balaam. I believe that this is part of a covenant for God's prophets and eyewitnesses stand out and to be saved through the last resort. That's actually how David and even Paul are saved as a chosen witness. While the Bible says that Israel as a whole was chosen as God's witness.

In matters of opinion, I personally don't care what people think of themselves or call themselves. To me, it is simply a matter of interpretation of prophecy being disputed here, and the traditional interpretation of the Lord returning specifically for Israel after the flesh as his people is false.

God no longer has any promised people born of flesh. That ended at the cross, and now there is no profit of the flesh with God. (John 6:63)

From a lawful/legal point of view, all God's chosen witnesses are deemed savable, unless you are someone like Balaam.

That appears to be saying that anyone is God's chosen people, so long as they can still be saved, and are not reprobates like Balaam.

God won't give up on those Jews (that) keep being loyal to Him.

The problem of course is those still worshipping in the Jews religion or 'Judaism', are by definition not loyal to the risen God of Israel, whom they had crucified, and would still do so today, if He came again in like manner as before.

Those in the Jews religion are no more loyal to the true God Jesus Christ, than them in the Islamic religion, or any other false religion on earth.

The only thing they are 'loyal' to is the traditions they held to, and still hold to, instead of the Word of God they rejected for those traditions:

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Whether today's Jews are considered God's chosen people is only up to God to judge and define, not man.

Anything God has written about in Scripture is our business; otherwise, He would not have written it in Scripture.

The Bible itself never said that the Jews as a whole is not a people of God.

And that of course is your opinion, though written as a definitive statement.

They were all concluded in unbelief at the cross (Rom 11:32), even as Jesus prophesied in John 16.

Furthermore, the only Jews that are a people of God today are them circumcised inwardly, all others calling themselves Jews by outward circumcision are called liars by the Lord. (Rev 2:9,3:9)

Only those with the circumcision of Christ are called Jews by God today, and their new name is Christians:

For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. (Is 62)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

In matters of opinion, I personally don't care what people think of themselves or call themselves. To me, it is simply a matter of interpretation of prophecy being disputed here, and the traditional interpretation of the Lord returning specifically for Israel after the flesh as his people is false.

God no longer has any promised people born of flesh. That ended at the cross, and now there is no profit of the flesh with God. (John 6:63)

From a lawful/legal point of view, all God's chosen witnesses are deemed savable, unless you are someone like Balaam.

Basing it on that story it couldn’t be concluded without the asses testimony, legally.

 

[U.S. Grant]

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. (Matthew 21)

The first time the Redeemer came out of Sion to a people of flesh was the last time He would do so.

Even as He is the first and the last, He also came the first and the last time to Israel after the flesh.

He won't be doing that anymore, because He no longer has any promised people born and circumcised of flesh, but only them born and circumcised of Spirit.

The body of Christ is now the house of Jacob and children of Israel in natural bodies. Christians are the new name given by God to His people, who are no longer called Jews.

Them that repent and believe Jesus are the elect remnant of the last days being grafted into the green olive tree of the risen God of Israel.

The Lord will be returning in the air to resurrect His people purified by the fire of tribulation in the last days, which days of tribulation began with His resurrection from the dead.

The great tribulation of the last days has been flooding the earth to destroy the elect, ever since the dragon was cast down out of heaven, when Jesus rose again with all power in heaven and in earth.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

These last days of great tribulation will end with the resurrection of the dead in Christ first, and them remaining alive on earth rising with them to meet the Lord in the air.

We do not wait on the last days, for they have been here and are here. We wait on the Lord.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Basing it on that story it couldn’t be concluded without the asses testimony, legally.

??

 

[U.S. Grant]

A lot of Messianics believe in keeping much of the ceremonial law.

Orthodox Judism is not a sect, it is anti-Christian--rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

A lot of Messianics believe in keeping much of the ceremonial law.

Christians are free to keep whatever ceremonies and days and sabbaths they wish. We just don't judge by them as by law and commandments of the Lord.

Orthodox Judism is not a sect, it is anti-Christian--rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

They are the children of their fathers who slew the Lord, who were children of their fathers, who slew the prophets.

The first time the Lord came to them was the last time He would come to them:

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Now, without respect of persons, He comes to any and all that repent and believe His gospel, because the flesh profits nothing.

 

[U.S. Grant]

A lot of Messianics believe in keeping much of the ceremonial law.

Orthodox Judism is not a sect, it is anti-Christian--rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

It is more anti-Christian than Islam, because Mohammed doesn't claim to be inheriting the promise of Isaac, but rather of Ishmael.

The Jews religion is the first religion on earth to be made by man out of the true religion of God:

Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.

They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

God changed their glory into shame at the cross, even as they changed the religion of their God into that of man by rejecting His Son:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

The same thing occurs with the Christian religion, and even as they were broken off from God's olive tree at the cross, so can we if we crucify Him afresh:

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Those terms are not used in the OT, but the laws can be seen to be of three different categories: civil, moral (Decalogue) and ceremonial (sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, purifications, feasts, seasons, etc.).
We find the ceremonial laws, which caused the Jews to be separate from the Gentiles and to despise them as unclean, removed in Ephesians 2:15.
We find the civil laws removed in the end of Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem.
We find the Decalogue removed in its subsummation into Jesus' two commandments (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:40).

Does not the Word of truth show this division as pointed out in the response above?

NT usage sometimes divides them.

Was the covenant changed, or made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and a whole new covenant introduced?

Okay, we are saying the same thing.
The NT teaches that the Decalogue was subsumed into the law of Christ (Romans 13:8-10) and
the commandments and regulations were abolished in the flesh of Jesus Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:15).
That covers the whole waterfront of the law as being set aside.

Those terms are not used in the OT, but the laws can be seen to be of three different categories: civil, moral (Decalogue) and ceremonial. Does not the Word of truth show this division as pointed out in the response above?

I understand; however, I must remain firm, that I do not see Scripture nor the law of God in that way: it is true and righteous altogether, and all of it has power of God to justify and condemn.

I must stick with my point that it is one whole law, even as it is all Scripture, and if any is changed, then all must be changed.

NT usage sometimes divides them.

Where and how so? If so, then I must change my above view.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Those terms are not used in the OT, but the laws can be seen to be of three different categories: civil, moral (Decalogue) and ceremonial (sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, purifications, feasts, seasons, etc.).
We find the ceremonial laws, which caused the Jews to be separate from the Gentiles and to despise them as unclean, removed in Ephesians 2:15.
We find the civil laws removed in the end of Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem.
We find the Decalogue removed in its subsummation into Jesus' two commandments (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:40).

Does not the Word of truth show this division as pointed out in the response above?

NT usage sometimes divides them.

Was the covenant changed, or made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and a whole new covenant introduced?

Okay, we are saying the same thing.
The NT teaches that the Decalogue was subsumed into the law of Christ (Romans 13:8-10) and
the commandments and regulations were abolished in the flesh of Jesus Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:15).
That covers the whole waterfront of the law as being set aside.

Was the covenant changed, or made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and a whole new covenant introduced?

Here is how I see it from Scripture:

The first covenant and law of Moses was made void by the natural born seed as prophesied in Psalms 89 and 119, when they made their own God of Israel to be crucified.

The prophecy of Scripture in Psalms 14 and 53 was also fulfilled, where they declared there is no God, and Paul quoted that prophecy in context of all on earth being guilty before God. (Rom 3)

The promised dish was wiped clean (2 Kings 21:13). All they that dipped their hands with Jesus in the dish in Matthew 26 betrayed Him as the cross, according to His own prophecy in John 16.

The law and covenant and people of God ended on earth for three days, when not even the God of Israel was in heaven, nor on earth to keep covenant with them. There was no law of God for mankind at that time.

Like Gen 1:2, it was all made void on earth, and for three days Satan ruled over all the earth in deep darkness, which Jeremiah prophesied would come to pass in the last days of that covenant and law on earth:

For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (Jerem 4)

A full end of a law and covenant and promised people of God on earth was not made, because with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of God began to move upon the face of the waters of all people, to repent and believe the gospel of Christ.

A completely new law and covenant and people of the risen God of Israel are now on earth: the law of Christ, the New Testament, and Christians being born and circumcised of the Spirit.

We fulfill the righteousness of the law of Christ, not of Moses.

 

[Clare73]

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. (Matthew 21)

The first time the Redeemer came out of Sion to a people of flesh was the last time He would do so.

Even as He is the first and the last, He also came the first and the last time to Israel after the flesh.

He won't be doing that anymore, because He no longer has any promised people born and circumcised of flesh, but only them born and circumcised of Spirit.

The body of Christ is now the house of Jacob and children of Israel in natural bodies. Christians are the new name given by God to His people, who are no longer called Jews.

Them that repent and believe Jesus are the elect remnant of the last days being grafted into the green olive tree of the risen God of Israel.

The Lord will be returning in the air to resurrect His people purified by the fire of tribulation in the last days, which days of tribulation began with His resurrection from the dead.

The great tribulation of the last days has been flooding the earth to destroy the elect, ever since the dragon was cast down out of heaven, when Jesus rose again with all power in heaven and in earth.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith

These last days of great tribulation will end with the resurrection of the dead in Christ first, and them remaining alive on earth rising with them to meet the Lord in the air.

"First" being before those still alive rise in the air together with them.

We do not wait on the last days, for they have been here and are here. We wait on the Lord.