Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

I would have gone through something of a culture shock if I’d exchanged messages with a beefy argumentative poster like @Saint Steven in my early twenties. Could have blown my misconceptions out of the water.

Take no prisoners. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Are you sure that you want to argue that the Bible is false teaching? If so, I can hardly feature how it would be possible to argue for "Christian Universalism," even though that's the topic here and the title of the thread.

Come on, even you agree that there are a handful of UR verses. I'm not throwing the whole book away. - lol

 

[Albion]

I likely won't convince you on the basis of scripture.

But don't you appreciate how that diminishes or completely rebuts your POV? The Bible, and it being the revealed word of God, is fundamental to just about all varieties of Christianity. If IT isn't authoritative with regards to this issue, does the issue have any relevance to Christianity?

But what does your position declare about the character of God. I guess I can use scripture to make that point. Though you will argue that is not specific to UR, however, it is specific to the character of God. You may have seen me post this before.

Yes, but now you've taken the additional step. Previously, I could just say that you concluded something about the nature of God that was unwarranted.

Jesus teaches us to love our enemies, because this is godly behavior. Scripture below.

Seems contradictory then to claim that God will incinerate his enemies, and to further package this as love and/or justice. ???

Well, I think that if any of us are saved, he's loving and forgiving as well as just.

That's because we are all sinners. Without his generosity, we all would deserve nothing after physical death and could not face a judgment claiming to have earned eternal life by our own track records.

Half-full vs half-empty is what seems to separate you and me here.

What does this say about the character of God? Does he hold himself to a lower standard than we do? Seems slanderous to make God out as a cosmic tyrant with an anger management problem. Right? I have a higher regard for God than that.

That's a very standard argument. It's completely based upon human reasoning.

The idea that we come to know the ways of God just by reasoning it out, using our own mortal faculties, seems defective to me. It's why we have divine revelation to guide us, because we otherwise couldn't figure out much that is beyond our given abilities and our own limited frame of reference.

And we should make no mistake about this: When and if we start punching holes in Scripture and deciding to affirm the parts that appeal to us and dismissing the parts that do not, and/or deciding on the basis of some book writer's opinions, we've departed from the word of God. Doing that puts us outside the boundaries of historic Christianity, i.e. the Church that we were promised the Holy Spirit would keep safe from having the gates of hell prevail against it.

 

[Clare73]

Pardon me, but that is just not true. In the KJV, "hell" is first seen in Deuteronomy 32:22,

Agreed. . .and in Isaiah 30:33, but it is not revealed there as the destiny of the reprobate.

but the word in Hebrew is "sheol," which is translated as "grave" or "pit" about half the time in the OT. "Hel" and "hell" are not found in the Hebrew or the Greek languages - they came from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The OED places the first use of "hell" in English at about 850 AD, a time when a lot of loan words were coming over from Norse. So we have "hell" in the ordinary KJV, "hell" and "hel" in the 1611 KJV. Further back, in "Beowulf," we have "hel," "hell" and "helle." "Beowulf" points to Denmark, so a look at Norse mythology gives us the goddess/ogress Hel, who ruled over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." The pagan Norse believed that if you did not die in battle and thus lost your ticket to Valhalla, you spent eternity in Helheim.

As for Jesus, He spoke of "hades" and "gehenna," and "hell" was inserted during translation.

That's just nomenclature, it all means the same thing, Gehenna.

 

[Albion]

Come on, even you agree that there are a handful of UR verses. I'm not throwing the whole book away. - lol

Good. But if the Bible is not sidestepped or dismissed, my explanation must again be taken under consideration.

The weight of Scripture is definitely not on the side of the Universalists. So why is this not taken seriously? The argument I get back is usually, "Oh, that part is a mistranslation, so forget it."

But of course, the rather vague and few verses that Universalists like are not treated in kind.

 

[Saint Steven]

But don't you appreciate how that diminishes or completely rebuts your POV? The Bible, and it being the revealed word of God, is fundamental to just about all varieties of Christianity. If IT isn't authoritative with regards to this issue, does the issue have any relevance to Christianity?

No, I honestly don't appreciate that at all. - lol
The books were cooked. I'm pushing for prosecution. It's absolutely criminal.

I'm glad that we have have a Bible. But I question whether that was God's intention, or a man-made decision to declare such about paper and ink. I don't think God wants mindless robots that can't see beyond a text. Even Jesus understood this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

Saint Steven said: ↑
I likely won't convince you on the basis of scripture.

 

[Albion]

No, I honestly don't appreciate that at all. - lol
The books were cooked. I'm pushing for prosecution. It's absolutely criminal.

I'm glad that we have have a Bible. But I question whether that was God's intention, or a man-made decision to declare such about paper and ink. I don't think God wants mindless robots that can't see beyond a text. Even Jesus understood this.

Very well. This is the second time around for this particular point, so I think we know where the two sides of this debate stand.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, but now you've taken the additional step. Previously, I could just say that you concluded something about the nature of God that was unwarranted.

I'll allow you to say that now. Go ahead.
Can't you think for yourself, or do you need to be propped up by chapter and verse?
Do you really think God is a cosmic tyrant with anger management problems? I don't. That's slander on a grand order. Why would you cling to such a hideous view?

I mean no offense, I'm trying to wake you up. Should I make coffee?

 

[Saint Steven]

That's because we are all sinners. Without his generosity, we all would deserve nothing after physical death and could not face a judgment claiming to have earned eternal life by our own track records.

Good parents don't correct their children by putting them in a blazing hot oven. That shouldn't be hard to understand. And it doesn't resemble justice by any stretch of the imagination. People tend to forget that mercy is always an option in judgment.

 

[Saint Steven]

.

 

[Saint Steven]

The idea that we come to know the ways of God just by reasoning it out, using our own mortal faculties, seems defective to me. It's why we have divine revelation to guide us, because we otherwise couldn't figure out much that is beyond our given abilities and our own limited frame of reference.

Sorry, I won't let you reduce me to that level. I was raised in the church and have read and studied the Bible cover to cover. I don't come at this from a purely emotional stance. Which should be obvious.

 

[Saint Steven]

The weight of Scripture is definitely not on the side of the Universalists.

Didn't your doctor ask you to lose a little weight? - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

And we should make no mistake about this: When and if we start punching holes in Scripture and deciding to affirm the parts that appeal to us and dismissing the parts that do not, and/or deciding on the basis of some book writer's opinions, we've departed from the word of God. Doing that puts us outside the boundaries of historic Christianity, i.e. the Church that we were promised the Holy Spirit would keep safe from having the gates of hell prevail against it.

Good point in your first sentence. That was something I had to come to grips with early on in this process. You are mistaken in assuming that the church is a human institution. The Body of Christ is bigger than that. IMHO

 

[Saint Steven]

Good. But if the Bible is not sidestepped or dismissed, my explanation must again be taken under consideration.

I always take your explanations under consideration. Not sure that saw cuts both ways though.

 

[Clare73]

No, I honestly don't appreciate that at all. - lol
The books were cooked. I'm pushing for prosecution. It's absolutely criminal.

You have no idea where this battle against the word of God written is going to take you. . .
you may realize it when it is too late.

I'm glad that we have have a Bible. But I question whether that was God's intention, or a man-made decision to declare such about paper and ink. I don't think God wants mindless robots that can't see beyond a text. Even Jesus understood this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

Saint Steven said: ↑
I likely won't convince you on the basis of scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

Good. But if the Bible is not sidestepped or dismissed, my explanation must again be taken under consideration.
The weight of Scripture is definitely not on the side of the Universalists. So why is this not taken seriously? The argument I get back is usually, "Oh, that part is a mistranslation, so forget it."
But of course, the rather vague and few verses that Universalists like are not treated in kind.

And @Lazarus Short, and others, who share his views, have been shown that numerous times but that particular truth does not fit their agenda.
…..Below are quotes from three very credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
…..According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not alter or disprove anything in the following post.

[1] Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2] Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3] Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Hmm]

I would have gone through something of a culture shock if I’d exchanged messages with a beefy argumentative poster like @Saint Steven in my early twenties. Could have blown my misconceptions out of the water.

True, and once you become a Christian universalist and are in a playground universalist fight, @Saint Steven suddenly becomes the big boy you're glad to see wading in and sorting all your protagonists out!

 

[Hmm]

Are you sure that you want to argue that the Bible is false teaching?

That's a complete misrepresentation of what he's been saying.

 

[Hmm]

Pardon me, but that is just not true. In the KJV, "hell" is first seen in Deuteronomy 32:22, but the word in Hebrew is "sheol," which is translated as "grave" or "pit" about half the time in the OT. "Hel" and "hell" are not found in the Hebrew or the Greek languages - they came from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The OED places the first use of "hell" in English at about 850 AD, a time when a lot of loan words were coming over from Norse. So we have "hell" in the ordinary KJV, "hell" and "hel" in the 1611 KJV. Further back, in "Beowulf," we have "hel," "hell" and "helle." "Beowulf" points to Denmark, so a look at Norse mythology gives us the goddess/ogress Hel, who ruled over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." The pagan Norse believed that if you did not die in battle and thus lost your ticket to Valhalla, you spent eternity in Helheim.

As for Jesus, He spoke of "hades" and "gehenna," and "hell" was inserted during translation.

Very informative, thanks

 

[Saint Steven]

True, and once you become a Christian universalist and are in a playground universalist fight, @Saint Steven suddenly becomes the big boy you're glad to see wading in and sorting all your protagonists out!

I thought this was a blood sport. Perhaps I was mistaken. - lol