Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Andrewn]

I will confess (agree) that China's navy is greater than that of the U.S., but that doesn't mean that I am in favor of it.

You're saying that "confess" means to "acknowledge a fact" and I agree with you. The question is whether acknowledging "that Jesus Christ is Lord" involves repentance, praise, and becoming part of Christ's Kingdom. So, let's see how the verb "exomologeo" is used 10 times in the NT:

Mat 3:6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed G1843 their sins. (repentance is implied. Mar 1:5 is similar.)

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise G1843 You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. (praise is offered. Luk 10:21 is similar.)

Luk 22:6 So he consented, G1843 and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them (Judas consented willingly and acknowledged that that was the best course to take.)

Act 19:18 Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing G1843 and disclosing their practices. (confession involving repentance.)

Rom 14:11 For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL G1843 PRAISE G1843 TO GOD.” (a parallel verse to Php 2:9-11 showing praise.)

Rom 15:9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, “THEREFORE I WILL GIVE G1843 PRAISE G1843 TO YOU AMONGTHE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME.” (praise is clearly stated.)

Phl 2:11 and that every tongue will confess G1843 that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (this is the passage being discussed.)

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess G1843 your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. (confession involves repentance.)

Conclusion: There is no evidence of coercion in any of these verses. The acknowledgement is often given with joy, praise, and true repentance.

I'm not asking you, or anyone, to confess that that is 100% the situation, but only to keep an open mind and pray about it.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

Excellent topic. Kudos. The OP is so well-written. Thanks.

YES, a relief to learn that the God of ALL mercy lives up to his name! That our loving Father God does indeed LOVE all his children. And that ALL things will be reconciled in the end. That we will ALL find our way home to live in peace. And NOT while countless billions are burning in the basement for all eternity. AMEN

 

[Saint Steven]

It sounds good...it's just not biblical at all, therefore, a minister of the Bible is obligated to speak against it and warn others.

Not biblical at all? Here's six to get you started. Let me know when you are ready for the next six, and the next six. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Saint Steven]

You're saying that "confess" means to "acknowledge a fact" and I agree with you. The question is whether acknowledging "that Jesus Christ is Lord" involves repentance, praise, and becoming part of Christ's Kingdom.

This might help.
Acknowledge means "whole-heartedly", "openly" and "without reservation".

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Saint Steven]

So if we turn to Scripture for the answer, there are a few sketchy references in the Bible that might suggest Universal Salvation, but there are so many others that speak in different ways of the lost being eternally lost and punished, that the weight of Scripture really cannot, in good conscience, be set aside when we contemplate this issue.

That saw cuts both ways. (sketchy references)
I'll put my dozens against your handful any day.
That's how it works, right? The one with the most verses wins? - lol
Here's something to consider.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Saint Steven]

But if this issue is to be pushed further, we will need a good argument FROM SCRIPTURE that shows the purported evidence for Universalism to be convincing. In other words, why it is that almost every Christian denomination has gotten such a significant belief dead wrong?

How could your question (bolded above) possibly answered from scripture?

Maybe the broad way that leads to destruction is BROADER than you imagined. There's a scary thought for you. What if the few who find life are only a handful? (as "your" Bible indicates)

 

[Saint Steven]

That is such a sad comment. I would hope Christians agree on Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His Gospel.
Blessings.

That would be the hope. We are waiting.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ah ok. So you believe in Universalism. I love Jesus Christ of Nazareth no matter how He deals with those who hate Him. Can you love Him to that extent? Or do you have guidelines?

What about the countless billions going to your hell who have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Christ haters?

Besides, what did Jesus command that we do concerning OUR enemies? To incinerate them? Why would God's standard be lower than what is expected of us? It seems that some make God out to be worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (traitor)

Matthew 6:43-48 NRSV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Hillsage]

How could your question (bolded above) possibly answered from scripture?

Maybe the broad way that leads to destruction is BROADER than you imagined. There's a scary thought for you. What if the few who find life are only a handful? (as "your" Bible indicates)

Bro. Steve, looks like you are still doing a great job. Kudos from the heretic you first spent time with here.

Maybe the GREAT APOSTASY also came with the great big ETERNAL HELL doctrine, long ago. Along with all the other claimed 'false doctrines' that the Protestants here don't believe. Even Wickipedia understands that 'concept'. It's amazing so many here are totally incapable of believing or even conceiving that they may not know 'the truth'. Is not that, total indoctrination, plain and simple.

Wickipedia;
The Great Apostasy is a concept within Christianity, identifiable at least from the time of the Reformation, to describe a perception that the early apostolic Church has fallen away from the original faith founded by Jesus and promulgated through his twelve Apostles.

Well, haven't been back long, and already a 'warning' based on 'the letter of the law' which leads to death. I am so thankful that since 2009 I have never let anyone get to my "peace which passes 'their' understanding".

P.S.
Recently published 20 private copies of a 28 page booklet on "The Army Years". Your request, 3 years ago, to first put in writing a few pages unpacked a whole lot of memories. So I kept writing. Then the grand kid's mothers wanted copies to help them understand why Papa was 'how he is'. Then the wife wanted copies for all the family. Now I need to get back to "The spiritual Years" booklet, which will be much bigger. Thanks for priming the pump Steve.

 

[Saint Steven]

All right. "Suggest" or "intimate" perhaps. The fact is, that, there are relatively few verses that can be said to support a universalist POV; and many more that support the other, the conventional, view.

I think it is a matter of presupposition.
If you consider the Bible to be a Damnationist text, then there are a few pesky UR verses to steer around. (dozens actually)
If you consider the Bible to be a UR text, there are a few pesky Damnationist texts to steer around. (a mere handful)

 

[Saint Steven]

Does it necessarily mean life forever and ever?

Pretty lame if it was only a temporary promise. Life until you die? Everyone has that. - lol

 

[Hmm]

Well, haven't been back long, and already a 'warning' based on 'the letter of the law' which leads to death.

Well, let me welcome you back even though I never knew you before! I wouldn't worry too much about others' definition of the letter of law, as it seems you won't anyway

am so thankful that since 2009 I have never let anyone get to my "peace which passes 'their' understanding".

That's very wise. Christian peace is a seldom seen commodity nowadays, sadly.

 

[Clare73]

I don't know if he was a believer in Ultimate Reconciliation, but I doubt it. He's too accepted by ECT people. But then I don't know if he believed in infant baptism, the rapture or Calvinism or Armenianism, either.

Well, he was a Reformed theologian and pastor. That probably tells us all we need to know. But interesting, that being such a profound Biblical scholar, he did not support Universalism.

There are just so many theological positions which the church has argued about for hundreds of years. And "since it has been around so long" really isn't a determining factor as to what's true or false anyway, IMO.

Do you believe in infant baptism? What about communion, are you a much newer 'more Protestant' believer in Consubstantiation, which differs radically from the older Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation?

If you don't believe in all those Roman Catholic doctrines, all of which have been around the longest, then I hope you see my point concerning 'older' does not necessarily mean being right or wrong.

I am in total agreement that older does not mean "better."
They got "salvation not by works," and the "righteousness of justification apart from works" wrong for 1500 years.

However, I in no way mitigate, but rather extol, their faithfulness in preserving so much NT Christological doctrine through all that siege of false doctrine in centuries past, and they have the battle scars to prove it (i.e., transubstantiation, real presence). So we definitely "owe" them for the faith delivered to the 15th century.

Infant baptism was practiced in the NT church (Acts 16:15, 33), but not as regeneration.
It was seen in the light of circumcision, as entrance into the (new) covenant (Colossians 2:11-12), making them a part of God's people and partaking in their earthly benefits of protection and provision, personally receiving its spiritual promises only through faith.

I see the Lord's Supper in terms of the OT sacrificial meal, where they ate of the actual flesh of the sacrifice. So I guess consubstantiation would be what I believe, because I see the NT sacrificial meal, which he instituted on the very day he was sacrificed, as the actual sacrificed flesh of Christ. I do not see a living presence in the bread, for by definition, sacrifice means death.
I think that is what Paul means when he states the Lord's Supper "is a proclamation of the Lord's death until he comes." (1 Corinthians 11:26)

I see a more important and meaningful "living presence" in Christ within US (John 17:23), and am puzzled why a living presence in bread is so important. I see it yielding a quasi-idolatrous worship of the bread (one of their "battle scars" in the battle for NT Chrisitological doctrine) in their preserving it in the "tabernacle" on the altar, and their "exposition of the blessed sacrament (bread)" for worship.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What about the countless billions going to your hell who have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Christ haters?

From the very beginning, God revealed Himself. Adam and Eve knew Him, Cain and Able knew Him and many generations thereafter knew Him. Noah, preach day and night so that many could be saved. Many chose not to know Him. They hated Him. God continually revealed Himself from generation to generation. Then God chose Abraham because he was one of the few that knew Him, the one and only God.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh. He is I Am. The same God that chose Moses who also knew Him .Yet many who came out of Egypt chose not to know Him, they also hated Him. Only a remnant remained.
It is within each person to know the One True God. He revealed Himself from the very beginning and continues to reveal Himself. Choosing to not know Him is the choice of each and everyone who lived , lives and will live on this earth because He has revealed Himself to everyone. We are made in His image.
Blessings.

 

[Clare73]

Great video though painful to watch. Pope Francis comes across as a very wise and compassionate man.
I wonder how many fans of ECT would have the guts to tell that little boy where they believe his father is now, especially in the presence of other adults?
Someone once said that your theology is not worth believing in if you can't preach it standing in front of the gates of Auschwitz.

That is meaningless.

Do you think orthodox Jews are going to believe any Christian theology of any sort involving Jesus Christ?

If anything, Auschwitz should have made those there turn to him, but it did not.

 

[Albion]

That saw cuts both ways. (sketchy references)

Obviously not, since the point was that something of a case can be made for either view using Scripture but that the verses which might suggest Universal Salvation are far fewer and less specific than the others.

 

[Clare73]

I noted carefully while examining the Law that God gave to Moses, that punishment (always delivered in the here-and-now world) is generally proportional to the crime. Further, "hell" is never hinted at and the most severe punishment is simple death.

Precisely. . .hell is first revealed by Jesus, the only one who presents it.

 

[Clare73]

You're saying that "confess" means to "acknowledge a fact" and I agree with you.

The question is whether acknowledging "that Jesus Christ is Lord" involves repentance, praise, and becoming part of Christ's Kingdom. So, let's see how the verb "exomologeo" is used 10 times in the NT:

Mat 3:6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed G1843 their sins. (repentance is implied. Mar 1:5 is similar.)

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise G1843 You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. (praise is offered. Luk 10:21 is similar.)

Luk 22:6 So he consented, G1843 and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them (Judas consented willingly and acknowledged that that was the best course to take.)

Act 19:18 Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing G1843 and disclosing their practices. (confession involving repentance.)

Rom 14:11 For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL G1843 PRAISE G1843 TO GOD.” (a parallel verse to Php 2:9-11 showing praise.)

Rom 15:9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, “THEREFORE I WILL GIVE G1843 PRAISE G1843 TO YOU AMONGTHE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME.” (praise is clearly stated.)

Phl 2:11 and that every tongue will confess G1843 that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (this is the passage being discussed.)

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess G1843 your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. (confession involves repentance.)

Conclusion: There is no evidence of coercion in any of these verses. The acknowledgement is often given with joy, praise, and true repentance.

I'm not asking you, or anyone, to confess that that is 100% the situation, but only to keep an open mind and pray about it.

If a word has more than one meaning, it cannot be assumed that only one of those meanings is always used.

Context indicates which is meant.

 

[Albion]

How could your question (bolded above) possibly answered from scripture?

Well, it is. And I think you know as well I as do without quoting every last one of them that there are plenty of verses that speak of the lost being eternally lost and/or punished or even annihilated (since that POV has gotten into the discussion at times). The weight of Scripture is clearly not on the side of the Universalists.

But you are referring to my making mention of the fact that, of the thousands of different Christian denominations, there are hardly any that are committed to the idea of Universal Salvation.

There has to be a reason for that; and like it or not, the argument that anyone of us has actually discovered a counter-doctrine of this magnitude this from our own readings while almost all the theologians of all the churches of Christianity and all their official statements of belief have come down on the WRONG side...is not credible.

Having said this, I'd almost expect--because of past experience around here--that the reply is going to come back from someone saying "So you just go with what some manmade organizations say. I go by God's word instead!" That's no argument. To say something like that is just a matter of "getting the last word" no matter what.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Precisely. . .hell is first revealed by Jesus, the only one who presents it.

Pardon me, but that is just not true. In the KJV, "hell" is first seen in Deuteronomy 32:22, but the word in Hebrew is "sheol," which is translated as "grave" or "pit" about half the time in the OT. "Hel" and "hell" are not found in the Hebrew or the Greek languages - they came from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The OED places the first use of "hell" in English at about 850 AD, a time when a lot of loan words were coming over from Norse. So we have "hell" in the ordinary KJV, "hell" and "hel" in the 1611 KJV. Further back, in "Beowulf," we have "hel," "hell" and "helle." "Beowulf" points to Denmark, so a look at Norse mythology gives us the goddess/ogress Hel, who ruled over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." The pagan Norse believed that if you did not die in battle and thus lost your ticket to Valhalla, you spent eternity in Helheim.

As for Jesus, He spoke of "hades" and "gehenna," and "hell" was inserted during translation.