Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

No and that’s exactly why universalism is so dangerous, because it gives people a false sense of security leading them to believe that they don’t need to repent and believe in this life. That they can live however they want then just repent later and still be saved.

That would only apply to people who want to be saved in the next life but don't want to honour God in this. You're also implying that you can fob God off with an act of insincere repentence in the next life, which is not the view taken by universalism.

 

[Hmm]

Twisting scripture out of context does not make a false teaching true. Happy to show why if your interested.

Well, I've asked you twice so, yes, please do.

 

[Hmm]

Already did here in WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE linked? No need for repetition. But happy to re-post here if you want me to and discuss it here with you if your interested.

I'd rather you thought about the universalist views expressed in this thread and showed how those are incorrect, assuming you're not converted, rather than re-posting thoughts from another thread, otherwise we're going to be all over the place.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'd rather you explain in your own words.

The bible teaches the destruction of the wicked not a second chance at the second coming. His reward is with him. Universalism makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son.

 

[Hmm]

Universalism makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son.

I would say the opposite is true. The two verses below show that Jesus died so that all things will be reunited with God. Any doctrine that diminishes that achievement makes a mockery of his death.

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1 19-20

Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I would say the opposite is true. The two verses below show that Jesus died so that all things will be reunited with God. Any doctrine that diminishes that achievement makes a mockery of his death.

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1 19-20

Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18

You missed the point. If Universalism is true Jesus did not have to die. Yet we know the scriptures teach us that Gods' salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says. God is a God of love, mercy, justice and judgement and as the scriptures teach showing mercy to thousands of them that love Him, and keep His commandments (Exodus 20:6; John 14:15).

Universalism teaches love and mercy without justice and judgement. Yet it is this same justice and judgement that shows the love of God in sending Jesus to die the death that we all deserve to die so that those who believe and follow God's Word can be reconciled to God. Universalism therefore makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son and sin and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace *Hebrews 10:26-31.

According to the scriptures Gods' mercy and love and forgiveness are all conditional on us believing and following what Gods' Word says. The false teaching of Universalism says no we do not believe what the bible says. All men the saved and the unsaved, the righteous and the wicked will be saved.

This is a false teaching that has it's origin in the Garden of Eden where Eve said to the serpent if we eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil God said we shall surely die. This is where the origin of Universalism comes from. It was the serpent that said "You shall not surely die: For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:1-5). This is where the false doctrine of Universalism comes from.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Romans 10:1-13

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.


For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Romans 10:1-13

God does not save us to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin. Gods salvation is conditional on us believing and following what Gods Word says. If we continue in sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *Hebrews 10:26-31.

Take Care.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

God does not save us to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin. If we continue in sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *Hebrews 10:26-31.

Take Care.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

Galatians 2:17-21

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

Galatians 2:17-21

According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. As posted earlier, obedience to God's words are not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12. According to the scripture Gods' Grace is given to us for obedience to the faith (the Word) not disobedience to the faith *Romans 1:5; Titus 2-11-12.

Take Care

 

[Hmm]

You missed the point. If Universalism is true Jesus did not have to die.

You simply don't understand Christian Universalism and neither do you want to because it's been explained to you ad nauseum in this and other threads. One more go and then I'm going to leave it. For Christian Universalism, think Christianity with a corrective and time-limited hell instead of a punitive and everlasting hell and then you'll understand it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You simply don't understand Christian Universalism and neither do you want to because it's been explained to you ad nauseum in this and other threads. One more go and then I'm going to leave it. For Christian Universalism, think Christianity with a corrective and time-limited hell instead of a punitive and everlasting hell and then you'll understand it.

Sure I understand it. I just explained to you simply in my words which are supported by the scriptures why I do not believe Universalism is biblical as you requested without posting a wall of supporting scripture which is what I normally do. I guess you just did not like the explanation but the scriptures are there for all to see. Universalism is simply the same old lie repeated by the devil in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3:1-5. I do not believe in the Catholic doctrine of everlasting burning Hell btw this false teaching is just as unbiblical as Universalism. We should seek to turn away from the teachings of men and return to God and seek him through His Word while he may be found and draw upon him while he is near. Tomorrow may be too late. We only have today.

Take Care.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. As posted earlier, obedience to God's words are not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12.

Take Care

We have died to the Law by being baptised into Christ's death.

This you said earlier - "If Universalism is true Jesus did not have to die." Yet every single one of us who is saved is baptised into His death. He, through death, conquered death. He, God incarnate, the Word made flesh, died as a man, without sin, and rose triumphant from the grave.

"O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

So, I would say, that only through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ would universalism even be possible (not that I am arguing in favour of it, only demonstrating the incomparable power of the resurrection) because it is only though Christ, God the Son made man, come into the world as the New Adam who conquered death, that the old Adam can be saved.

So, the reason we are dead to the law, is the reason that we hope in resurrection.


Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech — unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.

But their minds were blinded.

For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:12-18

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We have died to the Law by being baptised into Christ's death.

This you said earlier - "If Universalism is true Jesus did not have to die." Yet every single one of us who is saved is baptised into His death. He, through death, conquered death. He, God incarnate, the Word made flesh, died as a man, without sin, and rose triumphant from the grave.

"O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

So, I would say, that only through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ would universalism even be possible (not that I am arguing in favour of it, only demonstrating the incomparable power of the resurrection) because it is only though Christ, God the Son made man, come into the world as the New Adam who conquered death, that the old Adam can be saved.

So, the reason we are dead to the law, is the reason that we hope in resurrection.


Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech — unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.

But their minds were blinded.

For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:12-18

According to the scriptures no one dies to the law by breaking the law *1 John 2:3-4; Romans 7:5-6; Romans 6:1-23 just the same as no one keeps the Spirit of the law by breaking the letter of the law *Romans 13:8-10. The scriptures you provide are conditional promises to those who believe and follow what God's Word says not to those who do not believe and do not follow what God's Word says. Those who do not believe and do not follow Jesus says depart from me you who work iniquity I never knew you *Matthew 7:21-23

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

The problem with limiting to the "substitutionary atonement" and nothing more is that it gives the impression that we, flesh of Adam, would have been restored to Eden with sin forgiven, rather than utterly transformed into the image of Christ, through baptism into His death.

We are not restored to Eden through Christ's death. We are made new.

 

[Hmm]

I guess you just did not like the explanation but the scriptures are there for all to see.

They are so there's no point in insisting on your view. We're all adults here and we can make our own mind up.

Universalism is simply the same old lie repeated by the devil in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3:1-5

If the devil "repeated" the lie then it must have been said by someone else first. Who was that?

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

According to the scriptures no one dies to the law by breaking the law *1 John 2:3-4 just the same as no one keeps the Spirit of the law by breaking the letter of the law *Romans 13:8-10.

No one can break the law if they are dead to the law.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No one can break the law if they are dead to the law.

It is not the law we are to die to it is sin *Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:5-6 which is defined in the scriptures are breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing and following what Gods' Word says *James 2:10-11; Romans 14:23. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and is why Paul calls it holy just and good in Romans 7:12.

Take Care

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

It is not the law we are to die to it is sin *Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:5-6. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and is why Paul calls it holy just and good in Romans 7:12.

Take Care

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God."
Galatians 2:19

 

[LoveGodsWord]

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God."
Galatians 2:19

Galatians 2:19 in context is talking about seeking to be justified by the works of the law. No one is teaching you this so your scripture reference is not relevant. Paul is saying here we die to the law for trying to seek our own righteousness from the law. He is not saying we die to the law because we are now free to break Gods' law. Galatians 2:17 says if we do this we find ourselves as sinners and transgressors of the law in Galatians 2:18. To claim we die to the law to break Gods' law is a false teaching of lawlessness (without law) which is not biblical.

Context added back....

Galatians 2:16-21
[16], Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[17], But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
[18], For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
[19], For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live to God.
[20], I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[21], I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain

..............

Faith does not abolish the law however it establishes Gods' law according to Romans 3:31; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 13:8-10

Hope this is helpful