Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Jipsah

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I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith.
Man U? Nooooooo!

Oh, wait a minute, the team I support is in Championship, not Premier. Never mind. (Hey, I don't even hate West Ham.) :wave:

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?
Spot on IMO.

For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.
Same here. And while I'd like to see the members of the murderous Kim dynasty in Korea eaten by scorpions, I don't see that as being very God-like. I'd rather see them, and everybody else, saved and set right by the grace of God. That would be glorious!
 
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dqhall

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Did you not find DeRose's explanation that "all" does in fact mean "all" convincing? I know it's only one verse but if even if that one verse is true then Christian Universalism is true. But luckily there isn't just this one verse and we have above all Jesus, the perfect image of God, who shows us in his life, death and being that associating eternal torment with God is an outrage.
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I do not believe in eternal torture punishment, for Jesus said, “Blessed are the merciful, for they will obtain mercy.” Shepherds do not torture their sheep.

One passage lets me know God intends to prevent the wicked from destroying the good and Holy:

Luke 13:22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
 
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Basil the Great

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I agree although I wouldn't use the word "forced". Who wouldn't finally repent? Is even Hitler so evil that he would eternally refuse to repent and receive God’s love? It's conceivable I guess but would it really happen? Would not God revealing his love and beauty over an unlimited amount of time in a remedial "hell" “be able to eventually draw in even someone like Hitler? Even he is someone who God created and loves as his child.
I really meant to be required to repent, not forced.
 
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Clare73

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What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.
Why is it so hard for you to believe the simple fact that it is not Biblical is the reason believers don't like it?
And they won't accept until it can be shown to be Bibilical, which it cannot.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Why is it so hard for you to believe the simple fact that it is not Biblical is the reason believers don't like it?
And they won't accept until it can be shown to be Bibilical, which it cannot.

The reason why I'm willing to consider it, is because it has been shown to have Biblical backing. So I think the objection stems more from whatever theologies, doctrines, traditions and views one holds onto. That's why a devout Baptist (or whatever), will probably always be a devout Baptist, and will reject anything that doesn't fit in with Baptist doctrine and tradition.
 
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Ceallaigh

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One argument when it comes to what's Biblical, is that some things Jesus said are incorrectly ascribed to Him talking about hell, when instead He's giving national Judgements against Israel, the same as the OT prophets. Because Israel was about to be wiped out in a bloody firery holocaust. If one ascribes certain things Jesus said, to being about hell, then it seems He didn't have much to say about Israel's grim impending doom, which seems highly unlikely to me.
 
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Cormack

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for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
I Corinthians 15:22

Doesn't "all things" in this case mean that you're covered, too? "All" means "all," right?

Almost everyone in the church considers the “all” in Adam to be universal in scope, so it’s an iffy misstep to immediately switch from a universal all around Adam and death onto a restricted “all” for the all made alive in Christ.

The author was creating symmetry by repeated use of language and nearness of the whole construct, so whatever the first “all” means, the second all means something very similar.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Almost everyone in the church considers the “all” in Adam to be universal in scope, so it’s an iffy misstep to immediately switch from a universal all around Adam and death onto a restricted “all” for the all made alive in Christ.

The author was creating symmetry by repeated use of language and nearness of the whole construct, so whatever the first “all” means, the second all means something very similar.

What could be more scriptural about it than 1 Corinthians 15:22?
 
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Hmm

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Why is it so hard for you to believe the simple fact that it is not Biblical is the reason believers don't like it?

Well, for the simple reason that I believe universalism is the biblical position. One reason why it may be hard to see that is because of a misunderstanding of what Christian universalism actually is. It is not pluralistic but believes that we will all saved through Christ.

And they won't accept until it can be shown to be Bibilical, which it cannot.

It's easy to see it's biblical. This article alone shows that:
https://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/

It's more a question of not wanting to accept it.
 
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Hmm

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Hmm

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Man U? Nooooooo!

Oh, wait a minute, the team I support is in Championship, not Premier. Never mind. (Hey, I don't even hate West Ham.) :wave:

One thing about Man U is that it has more supporters outside of Manchester than within it. I think a lot of the fame and romance of the team came from the terrible Munich air disaster of 1958.

Coming from Tennessee, it's amazing that you would even have heard of a Championship team, let alone support one. Which team is it and why did you choose it?
 
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Ceallaigh

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So you said. Perhaps you could say why?

The irony is the thread posted is all about how universalism is untrue, whilst debunking it with
annihilationism, which just as many consider to be unbiblical heresy as well.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

It’s not a matter of what we like or dislike it’s a matter of what is biblical, what the word of God actually says.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

No and that’s exactly why universalism is so dangerous, because it gives people a false sense of security leading them to believe that they don’t need to repent and believe in this life. That they can live however they want then just repent later and still be saved.
 
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