Biden Drops the Hammer on Unvaccinated

[Belk]

I’m just making the same (but improved) argument.

That is a yes apparently. The topic is vaccine mandates. Let's stick to the topic please.

 

[Hammster]

That is a yes apparently. The topic is vaccine mandates. Let's stick to the topic please.

True, but it’s because the vaccine is supposed to be good for us, and since it is, you think the government has the authority to mandate it for our good, I figured you’d be for something that’s for our eternal good.

And the OP is a a Christian. I’m sure he’d like you saved from hell, too.

 

[Hans Blaster]

14k vaccinated Americans either hospitalized or died from covid (or vaccine reaction): COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC

There are 100 k people *currently* hospitalized, even if all 14k vaccinated persons were currently hospitalized, that would only constitute 1 in 7. (As a fraction of the total population vaccinated Americans are more than 1 in 2. One half the population generates 6 of 7 hopitalization, the other half 1 of 7. It's clear that vaccination reduces hospitalization. Note: There are some nuances I've omitted, like current versus cumulative hospitalization, etc., but the data is clear.)

Likewise, there are over 10k new deaths each week currently. Those totals quickly overwhelm any possible breakthrough numbers buried in the linked data.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

I think science is settled in that herd immunity can be achieved without a vaccine via natural immunity post-infection, yet people who have had covid are still told to get the vaccine. Fauci couldn't come up with an answer as to why. Fauci says to get the vaccine to reduce viral loads, yet we're talking about a virus with a 99.7% survivability rate for those under 65, and the covid deaths are not being calculated as causal, but merely correlary. Vaccines aren't slowing the spread, and therefore the blame on the unvaccinated is unwarranted. Want to stop the burdening on hospitals? Quit firing the staff.

Nobody ever said you can't get to herd immunity via natural infection it is the cost of doing so that is why vaccination is important. Infection rates and death rates are inversely correlated with vaccination rates throughout the country. That is why you get vaccinated to keep people out of the very expensive hospitals and to get our economy going again.

 

[98cwitr]

There are 100 k people *currently* hospitalized, even if all 14k vaccinated persons were currently hospitalized, that would only constitute 1 in 7. (As a fraction of the total population vaccinated Americans are more than 1 in 2. One half the population generates 6 of 7 hopitalization, the other half 1 of 7. It's clear that vaccination reduces hospitalization. Note: There are some nuances I've omitted, like current versus cumulative hospitalization, etc., but the data is clear.)

Likewise, there are over 10k new deaths each week currently. Those totals quickly overwhelm any possible breakthrough numbers buried in the linked data.

In my state, there are 10k current infections of covid, 3.5k hospitalizations, and a total population of 10M people; as a fraction of the total number of total population between the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

Again, those death numbers are correlary, not causal.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I never said anything about them having power.

Forcing us to attend their churches certainly would. If you want more people to go to your churches, you need to convince people to do so, not force them. When I remember that church attendance is slowly declining, I have hope for America. Then I remember about the vaccine obstinance...

 

[BNR32FAN]

It says it obey the government as far as the government is aligned with God. It’s government’s that do good, not evil. I’m sure you wouldn’t support Christians surrendering to the Taliban and face certain death.

Amen, there are several examples of men who were declared righteous by God who opposed the governing authorities because their ordnances were in opposition to God. David, Shadrach, Abednego, Meshach, John the Baptist, the apostles and Jesus Himself are just a few examples.

 

[KCfromNC]

In my state, there are 10k current infections of covid, 3.5k hospitalizations, and a total population of 10M people; as a fraction of the total number of total population between the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

And as we've seen from the data posted earlier a few pages back, the unvaccinated are over represented in cases, hospitalization and deaths. I mean, yeah, 80-90% of serious cases being among the unvaccinated is a fraction of the total, but good luck selling that fraction as a reason to avoid being vaccinated.

Again, those death numbers are correlary, not causal.

Here's yet another claim I have zero reason to believe.

 

[Hans Blaster]

In my state, there are 10k current infections of covid, 3.5k hospitalizations, and a total population of 10M people; as a fraction of the total number of total population between the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

Again, those death numbers are correlary, not causal.

The numbers you quote provide no information about the effectiveness of the vaccine as there is no breakdown by vaccination.

What fraction of the hospital beds are occupied by COVID patients (which could be largely avoided by various prevention measures)?

 

[98cwitr]

Nobody ever said you can't get to herd immunity via natural infection it is the cost of doing so that is why vaccination is important.

Then why vaccinate those already immune?

 

[Hammster]

Forcing us to attend their churches certainly would. If you want more people to go to your churches, you need to convince people to do so, not force them. When I remember that church attendance is slowly declining, I have hope for America. Then I remember about the vaccine obstinance...

If you want more people to get vaccinated, you need to convince them to do so.

That’s how it works.

 

[98cwitr]

And as we've seen from the data posted earlier a few pages back, the unvaccinated are over represented in cases, hospitalization and deaths. I mean, yeah, 80-90% of serious cases being among the unvaccinated is a fraction of the total, but good luck selling that fraction as a reason to avoid being vaccinated.

Here's yet another claim I have zero reason to believe.

This is true of both hospitalizations and deaths:

Data on cases and deaths, including number, demographics, county and ZIP code of residence, come from the North Carolina COVID-19 Surveillance System (NC COVID). Data on cases and deaths include both molecular (PCR) and antigen positive cases. County and ZIP code case and death totals may not match the total NC cases or deaths; this could be attributed to incomplete information.

Cases | NC COVID-19

specific to deaths:

COVID-19 deaths include people who have had a positive molecular (PCR) or antigen test for COVID-19, who died without fully recovering from COVID-19, and who had no alternative cause of death identified. Deaths are reported by hospitals and clinicians directly to the local and state health departments. Once reported, NCDHHS or LHD staff manually enter the death by date of death, into NC COVID.

However, we see that 94% of covid deaths have a 2.9 comorbidity: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf

As per the CDC, only 6% of deaths were listed as "covid only" deaths.

There is no indication that the reason they're in the hospital in the first place is directly caused by a covid infection. After all, if they test positive and are in the hospital, for any reason whatsoever, then that's a positive covid hospitalization.

 

[KCfromNC]

The numbers you quote provide no information about the effectiveness of the vaccine as there is no breakdown by vaccination.

What fraction of the hospital beds are occupied by COVID patients (which could be largely avoided by various prevention measures)?

See 351. For some reason that actual data was ignored in favor of the vague type of post you responded to.

 

[KCfromNC]

Then why vaccinate those already immune?

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...

Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.​

 

[Hans Blaster]

If you want more people to get vaccinated, you need to convince them to do so.

That’s how it works.

As per the OP, Biden has a quite convincing plan: Get vaccinated or lose your job. We've already exhausted the normal persuasion and it is time to move to more vigorous methods.

If you won't take a vaccine to protect yourself, your coworkers, and other people in your community -- I have no pity for your after you lose you job.

 

[KCfromNC]

There is no indication that the reason they're in the hospital in the first place is directly caused by a covid infection. After all, if they test positive and are in the hospital, for any reason whatsoever, then that's a positive covid hospitalization.

What's your alternative hypothesis for why so many people who test positive for covid are suddenly dying in much larger numbers, and what research do you have backing up that opinion?

 

[98cwitr]

What's your alternative hypothesis for why so many people who test positive for covid are suddenly dying in much larger numbers, and what research do you have backing up that opinion?

CDC already addressed this. 6% are covid only deaths

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf

 

[KCfromNC]

CDC already addressed this. 6% are covid only deaths

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf

Yeah, serious covid has some pretty bad systemic effects. Or are you claiming that there's a lot of people who had covid and also coincidentally, inexplicably, had an unrelated case of pneumonia?

Not sure what that proves, though, given that the site you quoted earlier says this is how they count deaths:

COVID-19 deaths include people who have had a positive molecular (PCR) or antigen test for COVID-19, who died without fully recovering from COVID-19, and who had no alternative cause of death identified. Deaths are reported by hospitals and clinicians directly to the local and state health departments. Once reported, NCDHHS or LHD staff manually enter the death by date of death, into NC COVID.
​

 

[Hammster]

As per the OP, Biden has a quite convincing plan: Get vaccinated or lose your job. We've already exhausted the normal persuasion and it is time to move to more vigorous methods.

If you won't take a vaccine to protect yourself, your coworkers, and other people in your community -- I have no pity for your after you lose you job.

Maybe we will have a president that says “Go to a Reformed Baptist church, or lose your job”. We may as well try to use tyranny for good.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Maybe we will have a president that says “Go to a Reformed Baptist church, or lose your job”. We may as well try to use tyranny for good.

I think we have very different ideas about what is good. I want a disease that is killing a thousand people a day and has 0.3% of Americans currently in a hospital bed to stop, and you want to force people to go to your church. The government has a clear interest in lessening the disease and the harm it brings and is *PROHIBITED* from forcing people to participate in a specific religion (or any religion). [What is "reformed baptist" anyway? Did they go back to infants?]