Are there further chances after death?

[Faith Unites]

Sorry but that makes no sense to me at all.

If we make it into Heaven because of our transformation then at what point do you cross from remedial punishment into life everlasting?

Ephesians 2:1-10 Galatians 2:20. We are dead, have been since Adam. But now followers have Christ as their life. The transformation is a byproduct of salvation. Transformation is the individual's testimony about the Gospel. The fruit is for those around us.

 

[Der Alte]

This discussion reminds me of Acts 26:14 - "You are finding it painful to kick against the ox-goad."
Some here have seen "hell" in their corrupt Latin-based Bibles, and have somehow been rendered unable to unsee "hell." We must wait for the scales to fall off their eyes.

Heterodox rubbish based solely on copy/pastes from UR "Hell no" websites not on thorough study of the Bible.
See scriptural support at my post [#571] this thead.

 

[Hmm]

If we make it into Heaven because of our transformation then at what point do you cross from remedial punishment into life everlasting?

Ephesians 2:1-10 Galatians 2:20. We are dead, have been since Adam. But now followers have Christ as their life. The transformation is a byproduct of salvation. Transformation is the individual's testimony about the Gospel. The fruit is for those around us.

I find your questions so strange that I can't even begin to think of a semi-intelligent answer, but I'll have a go. Firstly, we don't make it into heaven because of our transformation but because of God's love and grace. Secondly, we pass from remedial punishment into life everlasting when God has purified us.

I honestly don't know what you mean by the following:

Transformation is the individual's testimony about the Gospel. The fruit is for those around us.

 

[Hmm]

UR "Hell no" websites

You constantly accuse your discussion opponents of mindlessly repeating info. from these "Hell no" websites. Can you provide the actual URLs? I'd like to check them out because I reckon they must be pretty good.

 

[Faith Unites]

I find your questions so strange that I can't even begin to think of a semi-intelligent answer, but I'll have a go. Firstly, we don't make it into heaven because of our transformation but because of God's love and grace. Secondly, we pass from remedial punishment into life everlasting when God has purified us.

I honestly don't know what you mean by the following:

How is it strange? You said that we must be transformed before we enter heaven. We agree that it is God's grace alone that gets us in, but there seems to be some confusion on the how we are transformed. You say people go to hell to be purified. I said that we are not purified but given the life of Christ. It is through the giving of this life(his life in place of our dead selves) that we are then transformed. You are implying that we are transformed and then we go to heaven because we are clean enough to finally get in.

Transformation is the individual's testimony about the Gospel. The fruit is for those around us.

This means that transformation happens after salvation and is the evidence of the salvation. The fruit of the spirit is produced during that transformation and is beneficial for our neighbors.

 

[Hmm]

How is it strange? You said that we must be transformed before we enter heaven. We agree that it is God's grace alone that gets us in, but there seems to be some confusion on the how we are transformed. You say people go to hell to be purified. I said that we are not purified but given the life of Christ. It is through the giving of this life that we are then transformed. You are implying that we are transformed and then we go to heaven because we are clean enough to finally get in.

I agree that the bolded part is where we disagree. We agree that we can only be purified through Christ but why can't this purification taken place after death?" God and our immortal souls are eternal so why is our physical death some kind of ultimate final cut-off point?

This means that transformation happens after salvation and is the evidence of the salvation. The fruit of the spirit is produced during that transformation and is beneficial for our neighbors.

I agree but, again, why does this transformation have to be completed in this life? What about people who die young? Or those who are mentally impaired? Or people who are so emotionally damaged by life or are so self-deluded that they live a life of sin and don't connect to God. Will God just throw all these people onto an eternal bonfire or will He try to break through to them in the next life and "burn" any obstacles away until He is able to embrace them as the prodigal's father did?

 

[Der Alte]

You constantly accuse your discussion opponents of mindlessly repeating info. from these "Hell no" websites. Can you provide the actual URLs? I'd like to check them out because I reckon they must be pretty good.

Tentmaker – Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe. I Tim. 4:10
There was another one called "Hell Busters" but they seem to be defunct.
But I'm sure you are aware Dr. Ilaria Ramelli the high priestess of UR.

 

[Faith Unites]

I agree that the bolded part is where we disagree. We agree that we can only be purified through Christ but why can't this purification taken place after death?" God and our immortal souls are eternal so why is our physical death some kind of ultimate final cut-off point?

hebrews 9:27 states that we face judgment after death. 28 says christ took away the sins of the many, and will bring salvation to those awaiting him. IMO this means its over which would mean rev 21:27 is what happens after we die. Nowhere in scripture can we find anything about chances after death. That has simply been created because people have a hard time with accepting ect . I dont blame them for struggling with it, I have struggled with it in the past as well.

I agree but, again, why does this transformation have to be completed in this life? What about people who die young? Or those who are mentally impaired? Or people who are so emotionally damaged by life or are so self-deluded that they live a life of sin and don't connect to God. Will God just throw all these people onto an eternal bonfire or will He try to break through to them in the next life and "burn" any obstacles away until He is able to embrace them as the prodigal's father did?

John 5:22 says that Jesus is the judge. Will He be unfair? He tells us in John 7:24 to stop judging superficially and judge correctly. But more than this I believe that his blood can be applied sovereignly. He can save whomever he want because He is God. However, I can not get behind the idea of hell as being remedial. Hell is a place where God can not exist. It is His antithesis. How can we be cleansed in his antithesis by His antithesis? There is no good there so how can we be made alive in Christ in hell?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

In that case... what about the countless billions that have not heard the gospel since then? (the resurrection)

I believe after listening to many NDE's that God still "witnesses" to people at the point of death Himself if they have had no adequate chance. God is a just God.

I have heard of a Muslim man, who lived in a country where the gospel was barred. God sent him dreams at night, in the dreams he received the whole gospel of John (I think it was). THis shows God can, and does witness to people we think may never recieve the gospel.

I have also heard many NDE's that in the process of dying God "spoke" to them, or they reached out in prayer, and God revealed Himself to them, they being unbelievers at the point of death.
​

This shows that the "lost millions, with no chance" idea, has holes.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

He supposedly took some with Him, when He ascended, etc...

Does the Bible talk about Jesus clearing them out...? I can't remember, etc...?

From Hell, (Hades), and death, (Eternal Death or Lake of Fire), and the grave, (Sheol) (Sleep), etc...?

Or IOW's "eternal life", etc...?

God Bless!

The term "preach to the dead", would suggest, along with "judged indeed according to men in the flesh", would suggest that the same chance was given to them, that is given to us. i.e. they would not have been cleared out.

1Pe 4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[Neogaia777]

they would not have been cleared out.

I said that as only kinda meaning the emptying out some of it or them at the time, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Does the Bible say clearly either way whether or not that death is the end of the chance of salvation?

Some passages that seem to say that there are further chances:

19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
I Peter 3:19-20​

For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
I Peter 4:6​

And some that suggest that there are no further chances:

And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment,
Hebrews 9:27​

Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.
Luke 16:26​

The Luke passage occurs in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Here, the rich man, now dead and in hell, asks Father Abraham to "send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames." v 24. v26 is part of Abraham’s explanation for why this request won’t be granted.

None of these verses seem very conclusive to me for either view point. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, for example, the rich man is obviously being punished but that doesn't mean that the punishment will last forever. And the fact that while the punishment is going on, he's not free to simply walk away and cross over to heaven anytime he likes doesn't mean that he will not be able to get across by the saving power of Christ if they're ever released by punishment.

Is there any other relevant scripture?

I find Christian Universalism very convincing and so I believe that there will be further chances after death. Not because of these passages but more indirectly because of passages like these:

for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1 19-20

Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18​

If there were no further chances after death, these verses could not be true because, clearly, not everyone dies in a reconciled state. So the truth of these verses is not based on further chances being true but rather it’s the other way around.

Any thoughts on this question?

One Bible-interpretation rule is to interpret every verse in the light of its context, that is, its chapter, book, and the whole Bible. Another excellent one is to interpret difficult verses in the light of clear verses. If you apply these rules to these verses, you will arrive at the understanding that there are no second chances after death or Jesus' second coming.

 

[Hmm]

One Bible-interpretation rule is to interpret every verse in the light of its context, that is, its chapter, book, and the whole Bible. Another excellent one is to interpret difficult verses in the light of clear verses. If you apply these rules to these verses, you will arrive at the understanding that there are no second chances after death or Jesus' second coming.

Hmm... can you demonstrate the steps that lead to this understanding? My understanding says otherwise but I'm open to learning.

 

[Der Alte]

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21
Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

There is quite a bit of figurative language in the Bible. For example Herod was not actually, literally a fox when Jesus called him that.
Simon was not actually, literally a stone when Jesus called him Petros, i.e. stone.
James and John were not actually, literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Figures of speech.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


[Character Limit. Continued next post]

 

[Lazarus Short]

Heterodox rubbish based solely on copy/pastes from UR "Hell no" websites not on thorough study of the Bible.
See scriptural support at my post [#571] this thead.

Just as I said...unable to unsee "hell."

Further, an assumption that it's a copy/paste job. It is not.

Even further, an assumption that the poster (me) has not done a thorough study of the Bible.

Rubbish, indeed.

 

[Lazarus Short]

One Bible-interpretation rule is to interpret every verse in the light of its context, that is, its chapter, book, and the whole Bible. Another excellent one is to interpret difficult verses in the light of clear verses. If you apply these rules to these verses, you will arrive at the understanding that there are no second chances after death or Jesus' second coming.

Using the same rules, I became a confirmed Universalist. Explain that.

 

[Saint Steven]

This shows that the "lost millions, with no chance" idea, has holes.

I said billions.
Are you saying billions of holes?

 

[Lazarus Short]

I said billions.
Are you saying billions of holes?

Now, they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall...

 

[Der Alte]

Using the same rules, I became a confirmed Universalist. Explain that.

You want to win me over quote one verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, says unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, no matter what, righteous and unrighteous, even after death. If this is God's policy then God must have clearly stated it somewhere.

 

[Fervent]

One Bible-interpretation rule is to interpret every verse in the light of its context, that is, its chapter, book, and the whole Bible. Another excellent one is to interpret difficult verses in the light of clear verses. If you apply these rules to these verses, you will arrive at the understanding that there are no second chances after death or Jesus' second coming.

In principle, these are good considerations. Though when we get to the level of whole Bible a difficulty comes in because we simply cannot parse such a context. Too much background and disputable matters come into the picture and we're left with nothing but accusations. The clear verse one also is entirely too subjective, what's clear to one is not clear to another and what appears clear in English may not be as clear in Greek or Hebrew or something that is ambiguous in English may be open and shut in Greek or Hebrew. Ultimately, outside of ecumenical essentials I would say we should proceed with humility and discuss our interpretations rather than declare those who interpret differently to absolutely be in error. Who knows what scales will be removed from our eyes when we do so. So the question is...is condemnation an essential?