Teacher Resigns After Parent Complains Pride Flag Is "Personal Agenda"

[tall73]

They exist to educate children

Gay pride flag education is not the subject he was teaching and the school controls the speech in the classroom as it is government speech.

 

[muichimotsu]

Would you have posted this thread and defended the teacher if it was a Confederate flag?



Divisive is an opinion. Some people think the Pride flag is divisive.



I never said "what about".

Look up the word "analogy".

I would've done the opposite, that doesn't mean bias, because I would've opposed them putting up a Democratic Party flag or other partisan left wing flags. However, much as you seem to want to insinuate an LGBTQ pride flag is left leaning and partisan, that's not facts, because by your own admission, how one interprets symbols is subjective and cannot be fact, which would be a mind independent fact (not sure how you're going to assess ANY mind independent facts with only your mind to assess anything)

Whataboutism doesn't require the use of what about, that's merely a common manifestation of the fallacy

Some people think being gay is a choice, that'd be wrong on its face, regardless of moral approval or disapproval. People's opinions are the starting point to a discussion, we can never get to absolute facts in regards to such a thing, you're the one that's placing unreasonable standards in a discussion that should seek objectivity, but cannot seek perfect objectivity without it being a pipe dream in itself.

 

[muichimotsu]

Here, try this....

Definition of FACT

: a piece of information presented as having objective reality

See the part about "objective reality"? That's what we're talking about when we talk about facts.

If it feels stressful to have someone explain that to you...imagine how awkward it is for the person explaining it. This is pretty basic stuff.

Problem is you assume "objective reality" must just mean one thing, that's not how it remotely works in philosophy to begin with.

And even if we went with a common meaning, it'd be mind independent, which then gets into the epistemological implications of the term, which doesn't mean mind independent, but seeking to have as little bias as possible.

Don't talk to me about definitions as if they're prescriptive and monolithic, that's not how language remotely works

 

[muichimotsu]

You asked for a Missouri document describing the legal situation and I provided it.

And yes, apparently the school wants to be neutral in regards to all sexual orientations. Sexual orientation pride is not the subject matter of his class.

Would you be fine with a banner indicating objectum sexual pride? Would you be fine with a banner promoting heterosexual pride?

There is no need to put pride flags for any sexual orientation.

"Objectum"? Did you even spellcheck that part? Not sure that's remotely a thing or it was a major typo

There is a need for pride flags for minority sexualities, but that requires you understanding that pride doesn't mean what you automatically assume based on common usage within this context, same as black pride, etc. It is not assertion of superiority and arrogance about self worth, it is asserting that you have dignity as a person and will not be silenced, marginalized or treated like you are a freak by a society that does so out of ignorance.

The pride aspect doesn't have to be part of the class to constitute a distraction, because it is no different than putting up the banner in itself that says all are welcome except in how people just assume LGBTQ pride means you treat straight people like garbage (you don't, they're considered the norm, they have no reason for pride in that sense because they've never been persecuted)

 

[muichimotsu]

Gay pride flag education is not the subject he was teaching and the school controls the speech in the classroom as it is government speech.

There isn't such a thing as gay pride flag education, and if you assume every object has to be educational, then why are teachers allowed to have images of, say, their spouse and family? Isn't that indoctrinating about heteronormativity?

So the school is just digging a further hole by saying that even the allusion that you support LGBTQ students means you must be discussing it openly in education rather than it being support based as an educator to a student without a sense of telling them they are right or wrong. YEah, they're real "smart"

 

[muichimotsu]

I don't care what you're claiming is stressful. Pay attention.



Well that's good, because it's gone now.



What are they a victim of?

If I have to explain this, it tells me you're lacking thoroughly in any sense of empathy and assume that everyone's fine because they won't voice their concerns. Except that's a VERY common situation with minority groups when they're marginalized and treated as if they overreact when they complain about anything: little thing called gaslighting, maybe you've heard of it?

They suffer from a societal norm that, especially in more rural areas, treats them like they're a freak, that they don't belong. You have it easy by comparison in terms of traits like your race and sexual orientation, afaik, but don't pretend to act like you can even come close to empathizing with LGBTQ or non white people merely because you may be a minority in America as an atheist.

 

[muichimotsu]

Mostly, you're correct here, but I want to point out an exception: As of 2020, Virginia prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.

(Sources: Virginia Archives - Freedom for All Americans , Governor Northam Signs Virginia Values Act , LIS > Bill Tracking > SB868 > 2020 session )

I grew up in Virginia, and I still love the state. Much has changed there in the last half-century since I was a child.

I stand corrected and admit it. Guess that fell through the cracks, given everything else that happened in that year in general

 

[muichimotsu]

No...I believe I said it's not the job of the school to protect student feelings.

That's wildly different from physical safety.

Their mental health is not an afterthought, don't pretend like they're just okay and that there shouldn't be a school counselor, because it isn't purely the parents' responsibility, especially if it is directly a school related thing. Not everyone can just afford to pull up roots and move to another school district

 

[muichimotsu]

Well, no matter which version of the story we adhere to, no one forced the teacher to resign.

Is removal of the rainbow flag indoctrination? No, because the principle/policy is that such symbols are not allowed in the classroom on the basis of indoctrination. It should never have been there in the first place. Removing it is just adhering to the principle, not indoctrinating students.



No, I think you're wrong. Feel free to try to support that claim.

(It just so happens that whites and blacks can successfully breed)

Oh boy...seriously, you think the mere presence of the rainbow flag constitutes indoctrination? Explain how and be precise, don't throw out vagaries.

And no, it was demonstrably a thing that was a foundation in regards to anti miscegenation laws.

Just because white and black people can breed doesn't undermine racialist theories that treat black people like they're inferior based on outdated and inaccurate science.

The fact of interracial breeding is not what is generally the objection for anti miscegenation laws, it's that they find it objectionable, but with no real basis in science, fact, etc. merely prejudices.

 

[muichimotsu]

You indicated that it was not the job of the school to see to student safety. Even though in Missouri it is actually the job of the school to do just that.
you are suggesting that a minority student who doesn't feel safe in the school form say potential bullying be sent to a therapist because obviously there is something wrong with the student.

Almost like the white privilege is leading to white fragility and gaslighting of minorities. Weird how that trend happens...

 

[tall73]

"Objectum"? Did you even spellcheck that part? Not sure that's remotely a thing or it was a major typo

Did you check?

There is a need for pride flags for minority sexualities, but that requires you understanding that pride doesn't mean what you automatically assume based on common usage within this context, same as black pride, etc.

So is there a need for an objectum sexual flag to be displayed in the school?

The pride aspect doesn't have to be part of the class to constitute a distraction, because it is no different than putting up the banner in itself that says all are welcome except in how people just assume LGBTQ pride means you treat straight people like garbage (you don't, they're considered the norm, they have no reason for pride in that sense because they've never been persecuted)

So would you, or would you not, object to an objectum sexual pride flag, or a heterosexual pride flag?

 

[Tom 1]

I do know that the media keeps getting things wrong

A lot of people make statements like that on this site, but when asked can’t produce any evidence to support it. A more accurate statement would be that the media, assuming you mean the ‘MSM’, very occasionally get something ‘wrong’ as in incorrect. The longest list anyone sent me by way of proof for the old ‘fake news’ nonsense contained only 8 news items from a space of about 5 years, and only a couple of those were actual examples of incorrect information rather than matters of opinion.

If you have some other examples we can compare how objectively different media outlets reported on the stories.

 

[muichimotsu]

"If homosexuality cannot be promoted then sexual biology cannot be taught." The absurdity is too hard to hide.

Heterosexual partners do not necessarily have sex, first off and you act as if any sex that isn't penile to vaginal intercourse is immoral when I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other sexual acts that straight couples do and yet you somehow aren't going to mention them because that's undermine your agenda to make everyone sex negative, it seems.

Homosexuality is a normal variation within human sexuality and thus cannot be excluded in terms of discussions of sexual biology, even if it's more an afterthought versus the more basic notions of explaining what we are often very ill educated about in America: human reproduction, specifically female reproductive systems.

The hypocrisy is you treated one group (heterosexuals) as the only norm and permissible to "indoctrinate" children about being "good". Except that's not how a norm works in discussions of human behavior when the variations are not harmful, unlike say someone that is a cannibal versus an omnivore, herbivore, etc, the latter of which are normal variations in human eating habits, while cannibalism is morally abhorrent for a reason.

 

[muichimotsu]

Did you check?



So is there a need for an objectum sexual flag to be displayed in the school?



So would you, or would you not, object to an objectum sexual pride flag, or a heterosexual pride flag?

I'll grant it is a thing, though it's hardly substantive by much data, since the sample sizes are painfully small and not much beyond something that would amount more to a paraphilia than genuine sexual attraction in the sense of human interactions. Even asexuality is on the basis of understanding that human interactions are generally what we are concerned about. Same with aromanticism.

I'd say LGBTQ pride flag covers all sexualities and gender identities, so you've basically missed the point entirely. And you also utilize the oft quoted straight pride, as if that's remotely something comparable.

As I already pointed out, straight people are considered the norm, their need for pride is as likely as being proud to be black in Africa, where that's generally the common racial group. Being white in America is similar in that it is still a majority, even if that is shifting away.

I'd object on relevance with a straight pride, because it is diminishing the experiences of gay people while showing a thoroughly egotistical and false sense of persecution because other people are getting representation.

 

[tall73]

There isn't such a thing as gay pride flag education

Even if there was it was not part of the curriculum he was to be teaching.

and if you assume every object has to be educational, then why are teachers allowed to have images of, say, their spouse and family? Isn't that indoctrinating about heteronormativity?

No. A flag with a message is different than a personal picture. I doubt they would prohibit a picture of him with a significant other either.

 

[muichimotsu]

Even if there was it was not part of the curriculum he was to be teaching.



No. A flag with a message is different than a personal picture. I doubt they would prohibit a picture of him with a significant other either.

The object's presence doesn't mean he was asking students to inquire about it in class, because the added banner was more a passive message of support and he established from the start that he would be there to talk to students if they wanted to, but NOT on class time. It isn't a contradiction to focus on the class curriculum, but also establish that you will offer support for your students outside of class, that's what any good teacher should do.

Then they're being hypocritical, the picture with a significant other would still have a message to it in the context of the classroom if we're going with the assumption that every object has to have some explicit and aggressive educational element and cannot be a more passive aspect of approval versus making a statement forcefully.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I would've done the opposite, that doesn't mean bias, because I would've opposed them putting up a Democratic Party flag or other partisan left wing flags.

Is there a Democratic Party flag?

However, much as you seem to want to insinuate an LGBTQ pride flag is left leaning and partisan

I don't mean to insinuate that. He could be Republican for all I know.

that's not facts, because by your own admission, how one interprets symbols is subjective and cannot be fact, which would be a mind independent fact (not sure how you're going to assess ANY mind independent facts with only your mind to assess anything)

Again....if you don't understand what a fact is, we can go over it in detail....but it's really the sort of thing you need to understand before addressing the topic.

Whataboutism doesn't require the use of what about, that's merely a common manifestation of the fallacy

A fallacy I didn't commit.

Some people think being gay is a choice, that'd be wrong on its face

How do you know that?

I certainly used to believe that...but I've seen an awful lot of gay people claiming that they can be gay one day and straight the next.

 

[tall73]

I'll grant it is a thing, though it's hardly substantive by much data, since the sample sizes are painfully small and not much beyond something that would amount more to a paraphilia than genuine sexual attraction in the sense of human interactions.

Are you trying to downplay a minority group?

I'd say LGBTQ pride flag covers all sexualities and gender identities,

If you do a bit of searching you will see at least one objectum sexual made their own pride flag, representing different aspects of their movement.

Do you object to it?

I'd object on relevance with a straight pride, because it is diminishing the experiences of gay people while showing a thoroughly egotistical and false sense of persecution because other people are getting representation.

Relevance? None of it is relevant to the curriculum.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Problem is you assume "objective reality" must just mean one thing, that's not how it remotely works in philosophy to begin with.

In the context of facts, objective reality does mean one thing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Their mental health is not an afterthought,

If my kid is experiencing anxiety because your kid goes to the same school....should your kid be expelled?

don't pretend like they're just okay and that there shouldn't be a school counselor,

Did you just say "school counselor" like they're some sort of student therapist?

When I went to the school, the counselor was a person who seemed barely employable.