Teacher Resigns After Parent Complains Pride Flag Is "Personal Agenda"

[Ana the Ist]

And you proved my point by showing your confirmation bias, ignoring any consideration that people might not agree with that.

If people disagree with that, they shouldn't vote for it. I would gladly exempt anyone who demonstrates tolerance...sadly, this doesn't apply to you. You feel justified in removing any symbols you are offended by.

That's just hypocrisy.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So nothing has meaning now because you want to equivocate?

It's a symbol. Flags, by their nature, are symbolic.

Plenty of people who put up Confederate flags aren't racist or pro-slavery. A great many of them simply have pride in being a southerner or see it as part of their heritage.

You see it one way, they see it another.

That's the facts.

 

[tstor]

Being uncomfortable is not sufficient to suggest distraction when the student's biases and prejudices are what should be addressed, not some notion that they are being "persecuted" by the presence of a flag that is not telling them they don't matter or insinuating anything like that: quite the contrary in fact

The ethics and morality surrounding sexuality and gender identity are contentious. Ignoring the weight of such things in an effort to maintain moral posturing isn't really the job of a teacher.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The problem therein is where students don't feel protected, accepted, or safe and the school is supposed to be concerned about their welfare.

Schools don't exist for the purpose of protecting children's feelings.

If a child is distraught by the lack of a flag....the teacher should point out how ridiculous it would be for teachers to have to put up flags for every whiny child. If that doesn't work, tell the child's parents to get them a therapist.

 

[zippy2006]

"My feelings matter more than facts and being objective rather than objectifying students as political pawns,"

That seems to be your argument in a nutshell.

 

[muichimotsu]

According to the story in the OP, the problem wasn't actually the flag. It was originally permitted. When he was told to take it down he did. But in addition he was asked to sign a pledge never to mention sexuality. In context this isn't about sex education, which he didn't do. Rather, it was about mentioning his own orientation.

As a manager, I'm pretty sure I can't make up a policy for one individual. You have to treat people equally. If you are going to ban the teacher from mentioning that he is gay, you have to ban teachers from saying anything about or showing pictures of opposite-gender partners. He has appealed to the DOE Office of Civil Rights.

The state he is in has no anti-discrimination policy based on sexual orientation. However the Supreme Court interprets the Federal policy against sex discrimination in employment as covering orientation. One can only speculate how they will treat things like girl's sports. But this is employment. I would think the Office of Civil Rights would support the claim. It's a decade or two too late to be doing this kind of thing.

Administration didn't outright say it was okay, they just advised against it, but didn't say it was forbidden, so really, the vagueness is on them and they should try to actually learn how to apply this standard consistently

By their own logic straight people mentioning their orientation is "indoctrinating" children too, you hit the nail on the head about that inconsistency. It's like people can't see the hypocrisy in claiming that children seeing "normal" couples and such is okay, but heaven forbid they see a gay person and know they're gay, even if they don't do a PDA or such

This isn't a specific rule situation, it's acknowledging that the display of the flag was not intended to indoctrinate remotely, but offer an ear in support of students who may have felt closeted and such in a more conservative state

The parental complaint was especially absurd: like he was going to teach the children to be gay because 1) he's gay and 2) he had a gay pride flag displayed in the classroom

It's Missouri, not shocking that they don't have any non discrimination statute for sexual orientation, since the entire former Confederate states ALSO don't have any.

 

[muichimotsu]

Schools don't exist for the purpose of protecting children's feelings.

If a child is distraught by the lack of a flag....the teacher should point out how ridiculous it would be for teachers to have to put up flags for every whiny child. If that doesn't work, tell the child's parents to get them a therapist.

They exist to educate children, and ALSO exist to make sure children feel safe. Or do you think it's okay for children to be needlessly stressed at a place where they are meant to learn?

The child is more distraught by the bigotry they experience as someone that is struggling with their sexual orientation or gender identity, the lack of a flag is showing potentially that people don't really care.

More victim blaming, you're such a "nice" person to show how you "care" about students. Except apparently the school is more important and student welfare is an afterthought, how "compassionate"

 

[muichimotsu]

That seems to be your argument in a nutshell.

I'm willing to admit I could be wrong, the problem is the arguments presented are either trying to treat everything equally in a way that diminishes any nuance of the symbols and render even an expression of support as somehow political or claims that a rainbow flag is on the level of a Nazi flag. Either way, extreme solutions and exaggerating the problem so that they don't have to address the underlying aspects.

Caring about children doesn't necessitate using them as a political pawn, and acting like children need to just suck it up shows the exact opposite of actually caring for children, especially their mental health, like that's just an "adult" problem

 

[muichimotsu]

They are only "not equal" because you choose what is offensive based on your idea of what is right and good, and what is wrong.

And that is something everyone has their own opinion on... if your free to display your opinion of something that's good, then others must be free to do the same whether you agree with them or not.

Otherwise, it's "freedom for me but not for thee".. which isn't freedom at all...

Not my idea, a rational idea in consideration that some symbols have a more explicit association and not just existing in some nebulous way that no one will interpret negatively.

Problem with "freedom" as you seem to understand it is that there's no underlying foundation for governing it, it's just freedom and no concern remotely for the students' welfare or whether it makes any logical sense to prohibit some symbols because of hasty assumptions versus the consideration that some symbols are explicitly non partisan in nature and the polarization is done after the fact by opponents, not by those who put the symbol out there.

 

[muichimotsu]

If people disagree with that, they shouldn't vote for it. I would gladly exempt anyone who demonstrates tolerance...sadly, this doesn't apply to you. You feel justified in removing any symbols you are offended by.

That's just hypocrisy.

Removing particular symbols in the context of school is not the same as removing them entirely. Someone wants to put a freaking Nazi flag in their front yard, it's their private property, my neck of the woods has Confederate flags peppered in one place or another

When you put particular symbols of a partisan and divisive nature in the context of education, that sends a very different message and to suggest I'm generalizing and want to ban Confederate flags or such is thoroughly dishonest on your part. A rainbow flag being a flag does not mean it has the same response to it that a Confederate flag would even in modern contexts where the meaning is not the same as the original usage in the Civil War.

Do you mean you'll accept people who demonstrate tolerance? Seems like you're posting more impulsively than you might realize

If you just want to do tu quoque, I'm not playing this burden tennis with you

 

[muichimotsu]

The ethics and morality surrounding sexuality and gender identity are contentious. Ignoring the weight of such things in an effort to maintain moral posturing isn't really the job of a teacher.

They weren't going to discuss either, they were offering basic support as an educator to their students, especially knowing the struggles that a gay student would have, given that the teacher themself is gay.

The class context didn't necessitate any discussion of that nature and the teacher KNEW that, the parent and administrators were either overreacting or trying to cover their butts from litigation based on said overreaction and claims of "indoctrination" (which is apparently fine for a house of worship, but heaven forbid a public education talk to children in a supportive manner apart from any discussions of sexuality or gender identity, just saying they are welcome. How "awful")

 

[Ana the Ist]

They exist to educate children,

Right.

and ALSO exist to make sure children feel safe.

Wrong.

Or do you think it's okay for children to be needlessly stressed at a place where they are meant to learn?

If a child is stressed by the lack of a pride flag they need professional help outside of the school setting. That's not a teacher's responsibility.

More victim blaming

What victim?

 

[muichimotsu]

It's a symbol. Flags, by their nature, are symbolic.

Plenty of people who put up Confederate flags aren't racist or pro-slavery. A great many of them simply have pride in being a southerner or see it as part of their heritage.

You see it one way, they see it another.

That's the facts.

Didn't claim those who put up Confederate flags are necessarily pro slavery and racism can be far more subtle rather than just throwing out slurs; seems you still haven't even started educating yourself on what racism means, you just have it "figured out".

The "facts" are not some objective thing, the interpretation of symbols is necessarily subjective, but that doesn't mean all interpretations are equally valid, especially when the facts are not in favor of an interpretation that downplays historical realities associated with the flag's usage in the 60s.

That'd be like someone insisting that their use of a Nazi flag isn't Aryanism or anti semitism, but trying to use the swastika in its original cultural context apart from the usage by the Nazis. It'd be willful ignorance to excuse their tone deafness

Why not just admit you're applying postmodern relativism here instead of trying to play both sides on an issue that is only controversial because Americans seem to have a trend of caring more about being right than being educated?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Removing particular symbols in the context of school is not the same as removing them entirely.

Who said it was?

When you put particular symbols of a partisan and divisive nature in the context of education

What symbols are you talking about? Flags?

Do you mean you'll accept people who demonstrate tolerance? Seems like you're posting more impulsively than you might realize

There may have been nazis who didn't hate jews....but why should I give them any consideration if they support the Third Reich?

If you support the Democratic Party, you support a party that openly advocated hostility and harassment. If you're for "tolerance" stop supporting Democrats.

 

[muichimotsu]

Right.



Wrong.



If a child is stressed by the lack of a pride flag they need professional help outside of the school setting. That's not a teacher's responsibility.




What victim?

I'm speaking in the broader sense of safety and a child should NEVER be subjected to the kind of bullying or negativity that comes forward with regards to certain symbols that are far more unambiguous than you've deluded yourself into thinking they are based on the delusions of some.

Sounds more like you just want the children to be little obedient servants and never have any introspection or vary from the norm. If they're gay, just repress it because otherwise people will be "upset", if they don't feel certain about their gender identity, just ignore it, it's "just a phase"

The lack of the pride flag is not what I'm claiming is stressful, pay attention. The presence of the pride flag is helpful, but is not necessarily required.

And the victim is anyone that suffers undue stress based on privileged white straight people that downplay and treat LGBTQ students and students of color like they're overreacting and proceeding to gaslight them.

If you haven't had these struggles, take a step back and use some empathy, if you have any

 

[muichimotsu]

Who said it was?

You insinuated with no nuance that I was trying to get rid of those symbols entirely. Clarity can negate a need for absolute brevity

What symbols are you talking about? Flags?

No, trademarks. Of course flags, what else would I be talking about?

There may have been nazis who didn't hate jews....but why should I give them any consideration if they support the Third Reich?

If you support the Democratic Party, you support a party that openly advocated hostility and harassment. If you're for "tolerance" stop supporting Democrats.

Whataboutism now? Just tacking off all the fallacy bingo spaces here.

Cherry picking and guilt by association. Do you just not think there are individuals within a group, they just all have to follow the monolith without question? You don't think there were any Democrats that voiced concern about that, they all just walked lockstep?

And weird how you ignore Republicans who basically persist in delusions about election fraud or dismiss a need to investigate the Jan. 6 riots. They're "exceptions" to the rule of "civil Republicans", right?

 

[Ana the Ist]

seems you still haven't even started educating yourself on what racism means, you just have it "figured out".

I tried asking a guy named @muichimotsu about systemic racism but he failed miserably. He can't explain how it works, where the racism actually exists within a system, or its effects.

These days the word doesn't mean much when spoken by some.

The "facts" are not some objective thing,

That's exactly what facts are. I'm starting to see why you're struggling with this. You don't understand the difference between facts and opinions. Your interpretation of what these flags symbolize is an opinion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You insinuated with no nuance that I was trying to get rid of those symbols entirely.

Would you have posted this thread and defended the teacher if it was a Confederate flag?

No, trademarks. Of course flags, what else would I be talking about?

Divisive is an opinion. Some people think the Pride flag is divisive.

Whataboutism now? Just tacking off all the fallacy bingo spaces here.

I never said "what about".

Look up the word "analogy".

 

[Ana the Ist]

The lack of the pride flag is not what I'm claiming is stressful, pay attention.

I don't care what you're claiming is stressful. Pay attention.

The presence of the pride flag is helpful, but is not necessarily required.

Well that's good, because it's gone now.

And the victim is anyone that suffers undue stress based

What are they a victim of?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Didn't claim those who put up Confederate flags are necessarily pro slavery and racism can be far more subtle rather than just throwing out slurs; seems you still haven't even started educating yourself on what racism means, you just have it "figured out".

The "facts" are not some objective thing, the interpretation of symbols is necessarily subjective, but that doesn't mean all interpretations are equally valid, especially when the facts are not in favor of an interpretation that downplays historical realities associated with the flag's usage in the 60s.

That'd be like someone insisting that their use of a Nazi flag isn't Aryanism or anti semitism, but trying to use the swastika in its original cultural context apart from the usage by the Nazis. It'd be willful ignorance to excuse their tone deafness

Why not just admit you're applying postmodern relativism here instead of trying to play both sides on an issue that is only controversial because Americans seem to have a trend of caring more about being right than being educated?

Here, try this....

Definition of FACT

: a piece of information presented as having objective reality

See the part about "objective reality"? That's what we're talking about when we talk about facts.

If it feels stressful to have someone explain that to you...imagine how awkward it is for the person explaining it. This is pretty basic stuff.