Biden Drops the Hammer on Unvaccinated

[Lifelong_sinner]

What was "mission accomplished" in requiring smallpox and polio vaccines?

Those who choose to be unvaccinated will definite be discriminated against, as has always been the case. Their children will be required to be vaccinated or have home schooling or perhaps be isolated in their in-school learning.

discriminated against. I agree.
As for kids, i dont have any. And as for work, im retired. So they cant get to me that a way. I wonder how long till mandatory vaccines, or no buying and selling without the vaccine??

 

[Hammster]

That’s not liberty for “those who are concerned.” That’s a loss of liberty for them.

How so? Nobody is stopping them from living their lives as they see fit.

 

[mark46]

Ho hum. When decisions made by these or other government-related agencies go against the views of the "progressive" segment of the political spectrum, those people are not at all hesitant to denounce them.

If it is "progressive" to use the power of the federal government to protect the health of workers and those in medical facilities, so be it. The federal government has been using this power at least since the 19th Century. [It could go back further; I believe that Washington required vaccinations].

Johnson required hospitals to integrate, even requiring that rooms with more than one person not be segregated by policy. He made clear that the alternative was no Medicare funding. LOmaost every hospital complied. This is Biden new and novel policy.

I celebrated the formation of OSHA with all its very strong powers. Of course, this law was passed in a bipartisan effort led by a Republican president (a president who also gave us the EPA). These powers have been tested by the Courts for half a century. Requiring weekly testing for the unvaccinated is a relatively limited effort. One should recall the 19th century when the feds required railroads to change their preferred coupling mechanisms for railroad cars with a very large attendant expense. And yes, those business interests opposed objected to the overreach by the federal government. Little has changed in this continuing effort by the feds to protect workers, other than the formation of OSHA which consolidated the power and administration of workplace rules.

 

[Albion]

If it is "progressive" to use the power of the federal government to protect the health of workers and those in medical facilities, so be it. The federal government has been using this power at least since the 19th Century. [It could go back further; I believe that Washington required vaccinations].

Understood. But I think we have to be alarmed at how something like this is being treated as a blank check for discarding, without legislative and judicial cooperation, virtually any civil liberty that the people in power choose to abandon.

 

[iluvatar5150]

How so? Nobody is stopping them from living their lives as they see fit.

Sure they are. The unvaccinated elevate the risk of infection for all to a level that some are unable to tolerate. That’s not being able to “live their life as they see fit.” That’s being restricted in their abilities by an external threat.

 

[mark46]

discriminated against. I agree.
As for kids, i dont have any. And as for work, im retired. So they cant get to me that a way. I wonder how long till mandatory vaccines, or no buying and selling without the vaccine??

You will always be free to buy and sell online. Also, depending on your location, you will be able to buy and sell in stores that have fewer than 100 employees.

As an aside, if the situation continues, I could see state or local governments implementing vaccine ID's and apps, and not allowing the unvaccinated into a large array of businesses (already the case in NY), including grocery stores. Perhaps there will be special hours for the unvaccinated. Perhaps, this won't happen extensively until the next severe variant or the next pandemic. Of course, more likely is that stores like Walmart and national groceries will lead the way and require proof of vaccination (no harder to implement than requiring to see your Sam's card to enter, or you license to buy alcohol).

I would note that Cambridge MA enacted a law requiring vaccines for all in the early part of the 19th Century. The government clearly has that right. However, the feds don't have the right to require vaccines for everyone.

 

[Albion]

Sure they are. The unvaccinated elevate the risk of infection for all to a level that some are unable to tolerate.

You don't know that. For example, I personally know Americans who are elderly or otherwise infirmed and almost never leave their residences. I also know people who, although younger and generally in better health, seldom leave their homes because they have some underlying health condition that they fear would make them candidates for ventilators or death if they came down with the Covid virus. These fokks do not pose a major health risk to a lot of other people.

And then there are people who simply are so afraid that they take on every suggested method for minimizing the transmission of the virus along with avoiding the vaccines because they have not been adequately tested.

None of these people is demonstrably more dangerous than the fully vaccinated person who goes about his daily business without taking special precautions and may, therefore, infect someone else.

 

[Hammster]

Sure they are. The unvaccinated elevate the risk of infection for all to a level that some are unable to tolerate. That’s not being able to “live their life as they see fit.” That’s being restricted in their abilities by an external threat.

No, as they see fit. If being around people who aren’t vaccinated is fearful for them, then they can stay home, or take other measures. Nobody is making them do anything. So in this case, as they see fit is to stay away.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You don't know that. For example, I personally know Americans who are elderly or otherwise infirmed and almost never leave their residences. I also know people who, although younger and generally in better health, seldom leave their homes because they have some underlying health condition that they fear would make them candidates for ventilators or death if they came down with the Covid virus. These fokks do not pose a major health risk to a lot of other people.

And then there are people who simply are so afraid that they take on every suggested method for minimizing the transmission of the virus along with avoiding the vaccines because they have not been adequately tested.

None of these people is demonstrably more dangerous than the fully vaccinated person who goes about his daily business without taking special precautions and may, therefore, infect someone else.

K, I didn’t think I had to write this out, but I’m using “unvaccinated” as shorthand for “unvaccinated and interact with others in person.” The mandate under discussion is about workplace conditions.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So, how many of yall would feel uncomfortable if you were in a car with an unvaccinated person?? How many would be uncomfortable if you were in the grocery store with an unvaccinated person?? How many think all services should be stopped for the unvaccinated, like healthcare? Shopping at the mall, eating out at a restaurant??

 

[Albion]

K, I didn’t think I had to write this out, but I’m using “unvaccinated” as shorthand for “unvaccinated and interact with others in person.” The mandate under discussion is about workplace conditions.

Very well, but I was addressing the facile way that people who want to defend another of Biden's distractions rationalize the matter. I read you to say the following:

That’s not liberty for “those who are concerned.” That’s a loss of liberty for them.

which reads just like a "let them eat cake" kind of position statement although the issue here is very serious and is estimated to affect tens of millions of the American people...and that's not including their dependents. The administration didn't even bother to think that last part through.

 

[Ana the Ist]

lol wut? When did you start cribbing talking points from right wing cranks?

What Is Inflation?

That should help you out. If it seems to complicated, try to focus on this part...

As a currency loses value, prices rise and it buys fewer goods and services. This loss of purchasing power impacts the general cost of living for the common public which ultimately leads to a deceleration in economic growth. The consensus view among economists is that sustained inflation occurs when a nation's money supply growth outpaces economic growth.

So ask yourself 2 questions...

1. Have we been printing money?

2. Has the economic recovery stalled?

 

[mark46]

Understood. But I think we have to be alarmed at how something like this is being treated as a blank check for discarding, without legislative and judicial cooperation, virtually any civil liberty that the people in power choose to abandon.

You seem to speak as if the unvaccinated are a protected class and cannot be, or should not be, discriminated against. I suspect that you and I are differing on degree, but surely the government has the right (and I would say the responsibility) to treat the unvaccinated differently than those who are vaccinated.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sure they are. The unvaccinated elevate the risk of infection for all to a level that some are unable to tolerate.

Don't want to tolerate. They don't want to tolerate. It's not that they can't.....they just don't want to.

 

[mark46]

.

2. Has the economic recovery stalled?

Yes, there has been a stall in the last couple of months, at the same time as the variance surge in the South.

 

[Albion]

You seem to speak as if the unvaccinated are a protected class and cannot be, or should not be, discriminated against.

No. And that's a very strange argument, at least in our own society.

It sounds like the victim is supposed to be responsible for being deprived of his liberty without due process. If we buy into that line of thought, any injustice that is inflicted on anyone by government can be brushed aside by saying "they had it coming since they didn't go along, unquestioningly, with what we decided to do to them."

And don't overlook the fact that this is the result of an edict. It isn't a policy that worked its way through both houses of Congress, was backed by Court decisions, or anything even close to that...and it's not based upon unimpeachable evidence, either, since the supposed experts on the subject of the virus change their minds every other day and are in disagreement with each other.

What's more, we know, don't we, that this project is an attempt by Biden to save some credibility after Afghanistan by changing the topic and trying to look in control of at least something?

In addition, we know full well that it is a contrivance since, while he is talking about the great threat to everyone's healthy from unvaccinated Americans, he simultaneously leaves the border open for unvaxxed immigrants--and even diseased immigrants--to walk in and take up residence unimpeded.

If Biden were not simply playing a public relations game, using the unvaccinated as his excuse, he could never follow this course!

 

[Ana the Ist]

No. And that's a very strange argument, at least in our own society.

It sounds like the victim is supposed to be responsible for being deprived of his liberty without due process. If we buy into that line of thought, any injustice that is inflicted on anyone by government can be brushed aside by saying "they had it coming since they didn't go along, unquestioningly, with what we decided to do to them."

And don't overlook the fact that this is the result of an edict. It isn't a policy that worked its way through both houses of Congress, was backed by Court decisions, or anything even close to that...and it's not based upon unimpeachable evidence, either, since the supposed experts on the subject of the virus change their minds every other day and are in disagreement with each other.

What's more, we know, don't we, that this project is an attempt by Biden to save some credibility after Afghanistan by changing the topic and trying to look in control of at least something?

If anything it's just more evidence of the left's downhill slide towards authoritarianism.

Only good people agree with us...and if you don't agree with us, you're the bad people who we should force to do what we say.

 

[iluvatar5150]

What Is Inflation?

That should help you out. If it seems to complicated, try to focus on this part...

As a currency loses value, prices rise and it buys fewer goods and services. This loss of purchasing power impacts the general cost of living for the common public which ultimately leads to a deceleration in economic growth. The consensus view among economists is that sustained inflation occurs when a nation's money supply growth outpaces economic growth.

So ask yourself 2 questions...

1. Have we been printing money?

2. Has the economic recovery stalled?

Yes, I know what inflation is. I also know that that page’s description of the causes of inflation is over-simplified and somewhat outdated. It’s not wrong in that it describes one possible cause of inflation, but it neglects other causes as well as the fact that printing money doesn’t have to cause inflation. If one actually looks at the CPI numbers, you can see that the recent spikes in inflation are almost entirely related to covid: first, we’re measuring against this point last year, which was the worst of the contraction (or rather the worst of it was about 13-15 months ago, from what I recall). That alone is going to inflate the current numbers. Second, the inflation is concentrated in a handful of sectors all experiencing supply shocks related to the pandemic, namely oil, used cars, and airline tickets:

12-month percentage change, Consumer Price Index, selected categories

This will all flatten out in the next year once supply and demand even out.

 

[mark46]

Let us agree to disagree. We have made our points clear.

I find your argument of the unvaccinated as victim truly amazing. I suspect that medical workers in the South know better whether the unvaccinated are the victims.
==============================
As an aside, I understand that some believe in the strong importance of polls with elections more than a year off, and presidential elections more than 3 years off. Personally, I think that believing policies are based on these polls will lead to a poor analysis of events.

No. And that's a very strange argument, at least in our own society.

It sounds like the victim is supposed to be responsible for being deprived of his liberty without due process. If we buy into that line of thought, any injustice that is inflicted on anyone by government can be brushed aside by saying "they had it coming since they didn't go along, unquestioningly, with what we decided to do to them."

And don't overlook the fact that this is the result of an edict. It isn't a policy that worked its way through both houses of Congress, was backed by Court decisions, or anything even close to that...and it's not based upon unimpeachable evidence, either, since the supposed experts on the subject of the virus change their minds every other day and are in disagreement with each other.

What's more, we know, don't we, that this project is an attempt by Biden to save some credibility after Afghanistan by changing the topic and trying to look in control of at least something?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yea, I know what inflation is. I also know that that page’s description of the causes of inflation is over-simplified and somewhat outdated.

I picked something basic because you seem to dismiss talk of inflation as a "right wing talking point".

I don't know what the right is saying about inflation, but just because the left isn't talking about it....doesn't mean it isn't real. The left doesn't talk about the people dying all the time on the border because of Biden's policies...but it's happening. The left doesn't really talk about all the people stranded in Afghanistan hiding from the Taliban....but they're there.

It’s not wrong in that it describes one possible cause of inflation, but it neglects other causes as well as the fact that printing money doesn’t have to cause inflation. If one actually looks at the CPI numbers, you can see that the recent spikes in inflation are almost entirely related to covid: first, we’re measuring against this point last year, which was the worst of the contraction (or rather the worst of it was about 13-15 months ago, from what I recall). That alone is going to inflate the current numbers. Second, the inflation is concentrated in a handful of sectors all experiencing supply shocks related to the pandemic, namely oil, used cars, and airline tickets:

12-month percentage change, Consumer Price Index, selected categories

This will all flatten out in the next year once supply and demand even out.

Sure....sure it will. After all, Biden and his team have slam dunked every other problem so far. Why would he drop the ball on this?