The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[Sparagmos]

The fact that incels are usually bullied, made fun of, and the like...yes, they are usually outcasts. However, yes I do agree that the problem is internal but is made worse by external stimuli. I've not come across a case of one who went off the deep end who was generally well-liked and included in things and had good influences but just didn't have luck with finding a partner and decided to make it the world's problem.

Bullied as adults? In my experience, that is rare. Many of us went through difficult things when we were younger, but we have a choice as adults to carry that with us in a toxic way or as a lesson in empathy. Having spent a lot of time observing incels (online,) I’d say that they are themselves not very empathetic and do not value friendships or human connection. They are misanthropes. Misanthropes who don’t like or respect women but want women to give them sex.

 

[MehGuy]

I am curious how many incels actually espouse extreme beliefs like the idea that women should become sexual slaves to men. Even those who espouse such beliefs: how serious are they about it? From my own observations of the incel community I notice a lot of memes and inside jokes being shared. A semi-warped sense of humor culture.

Most incels I have seen mostly seem to enjoy sulking around and coming up with more and more extreme scientific reasons for why they and men like them are sexual rejects. There does seem to be a masochistic streak going on. Seeing some of the images and memes they share, like a group of pretty young women looking at them with disgust.. just seems.. a little.. like fetish material.

Even the ones who use more violent language I cannot help but wonder if this is more simply a response to many feminist communities often having an obsession with female victimhood. A sort of back and forth titillating exchange going on?

Sadly there will always be extremely psychologically damaged men who will read the room wrong and actually go on a violent rampage, I just do not buy the idea that most incels are prone to violence. In reality I think it is a strange often ironic sub-culture of mostly frustrated yet harmless young men. Many of whom, are probably not quite as sexless as they present themselves.

 

[MehGuy]

I grew up an only child to a single mother, which helped...but also did the harm of having a difficult time being able to develop relationships with other men. I'm in the same boat as you though. I'm able to have platonic relationships with women very easily...and if they developed feelings (I'm married now) I was always aloof to it haha.

Interesting. Do you also have trouble feeling romantic connections?

I would say I am a lot less aloof about these things than I was in the past. As someone who cannot develop feelings in a non-suffering context it is hard to spot these things, or even think they are possible. When women say they are falling for me.. I just think to myself and wonder.. "why?". Although I have come to learn these feelings are genuine on their part. I do feel bad for them, but still try to continue being friends with them. In the hopes that they will wake up for this "spell".

Thankfully most women.. good or bad are pretty docile. When they tell me they romantically like me and I reject them they never bring it up again. Even if they still enjoy spending time with me. I really only had one woman who didn't take no for an answer and thought she could by will force me to like her. She at least taught me newfound sympathizes for women who are harassed by men.

While not a feminist.. I will own up to the idea that men on average are probably more romantically aggressive.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Bullied as adults? In my experience, that is rare. Many of us went through difficult things when we were younger, but we have a choice as adults to carry that with us in a toxic way or as a lesson in empathy. Having spent a lot of time observing incels (online,) I’d say that they are themselves not very empathetic and do not value friendships or human connection. They are misanthropes. Misanthropes who don’t like or respect women but want women to give them sex.

The scars created by bullying, whether that be throughout grade school, college, in the workplace, wherever stay with someone for a very long time. Without God and proper counseling, they can stay with someone all of their lives. Regardless, nobody is too far gone. It can take work for one to be able to get their way into somebody's life but still, nobody is too far gone until they pull the trigger.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Perhaps also gender?

I think most men can flip a woman he knows from "friend" to "possible love interest" in the blink of an eye. Our "friendzone" line is drawn in sand.

Yeah, I heard many a stories where the situation between a platonic woman and men have turned out to be wedlock. Some people on FB would see their relationship status turn to "engaged" and they are like "What the....?!"

I had a co-worker that went to a very specialized vocational school out of state. That said, she was rather ensconced with this close knit group of students that were friends.

She hung out with this ONE guy after hours, on weekends, hiking miles together. She told me a lot of her friends thought they "had them pegged" as a future romantic couple, but she said they were wrong. They just wound up being best buds. She mentioned how he'd throw her into a snow drift (play fighting)...and she's like 4'11" (petite) so he could throw her around.

Sounds almost brother and sister like. Both in their early 20s.

She still stays in touch with her friends, states away, and even him of course. She tells me they plan on hiking the Appalachian trail together in the future.

And I was like "Just the 2 of you?!" (wink)

And she goes, "Well, other people can come to I suppose".

I couldn't help but to think they'll be sharing a tend together? *wink*

Anyways, can't help but to think, a man...being a man, will make an attempt to turn it around.

 

[Jamdoc]

. Do you crave affection from men and women, or just women?

. Do you also wish you could massage the men at work?

Any you say "maybe" it would be considered weird. Is it possible you’re choosing to ignore social norms which clearly identify this as a common form of sexual harassment/ unwanted from women?

. Do you hug other men at work? Do you want to? It sounds like you’re looking to use women’s platonic affections to satisfy a non-platonic craving for affection. That sure sounds like objectification to me.

Well, there are differences between men and women and also differences between how men and women interact together, both between men and other men, and women and other women, and between men and women. There's unwritten social "rules" in regards to male to male affection, even a hug is generally reserved for family members or very close friends, and even then, the contact in a man to man hug has its own unwritten rules, IE no caressing with the hands, don't linger for more than 2s, keep waists apart so you know what's don't touch, etc etc. Even if unaware of the social rules involved, most men subconsciously obey them. There's certainly just limited intimacy between men, and most heterosexual men, really don't desire any more intimacy than that with other men.

as to why women are more comfortable with higher intimacy between themselves? I have no idea, that's a mystery to me.

hugs between a man and woman, even as platonic friends, will have different body language, now if there's no interest beyond that platonic friendship(or they're family) there probably won't be any caressing and there may be back patting instead (whereas between 2 men it's basically a given that they slap each other's backs if they hug), but it's more likely to be a tighter hug, and linger a bit longer. It's just less awkward and rigid feeling, less like you're both subconsciously following a rulebook to not give anyone watching the wrong idea.

Even if it's a woman who is totally off limits IE married right in front of her husband, or a woman who is definitely "not in a million years" 0 interest at all even if she threw herself at you.. it's still more comfortable and less awkward than hugging male friends.. maybe your father and your brothers .. that's about the only exceptions, and even then, that's debatable. Being that my father's dead and was out of my life by the time I was in school... and I have no brothers I can't really say for sure.

I mean, I don't even hug my uncles, but my aunts want me to hug them when saying goodbye after a visit, and sure, I'm fine with that.

It's just different, even without any possibility of sexual activity the interactions and affection are different.

in case you're baffled at the idea that there's actual man hug etiquette...

 

[Sparagmos]

The scars created by bullying, whether that be throughout grade school, college, in the workplace, wherever stay with someone for a very long time. Without God and proper counseling, they can stay with someone all of their lives. Regardless, nobody is too far gone. It can take work for one to be able to get their way into somebody's life but still, nobody is too far gone until they pull the trigger.

That’s true but in most cases it wasn’t even women who bullied them. Yet women are the target of their hatred. These guys wouldn’t be this way, IMO, if they weren’t also fed a lot of toxic stuff from the “manosphere."

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Well, there are differences between men and women and also differences between how men and women interact together, both between men and other men, and women and other women, and between men and women. There's unwritten social "rules" in regards to male to male affection, even a hug is generally reserved for family members or very close friends, and even then, the contact in a man to man hug has its own unwritten rules, IE no caressing with the hands, don't linger for more than 2s, keep waists apart so you know what's don't touch, etc etc. Even if unaware of the social rules involved, most men subconsciously obey them. There's certainly just limited intimacy between men, and most heterosexual men, really don't desire any more intimacy than that with other men.

as to why women are more comfortable with higher intimacy between themselves? I have no idea, that's a mystery to me.

hugs between a man and woman, even as platonic friends, will have different body language, now if there's no interest beyond that platonic friendship(or they're family) there probably won't be any caressing and there may be back patting instead (whereas between 2 men it's basically a given that they slap each other's backs if they hug), but it's more likely to be a tighter hug, and linger a bit longer. It's just less awkward and rigid feeling, less like you're both subconsciously following a rulebook to not give anyone watching the wrong idea.

Even if it's a woman who is totally off limits IE married right in front of her husband, or a woman who is definitely "not in a million years" 0 interest at all even if she threw herself at you.. it's still more comfortable and less awkward than hugging male friends.. maybe your father and your brothers .. that's about the only exceptions, and even then, that's debatable. Being that my father's dead and was out of my life by the time I was in school... and I have no brothers I can't really say for sure.

I mean, I don't even hug my uncles, but my aunts want me to hug them when saying goodbye after a visit, and sure, I'm fine with that.

It's just different, even without any possibility of sexual activity the interactions and affection are different.

as to why women are more comfortable with higher intimacy between themselves? I have no idea, that's a mystery to me

Yeah I have noticed that.

in case you're baffled at the idea that there's actual man hug etiquette...

Yeah, the whole question of "Do you desire hugging men, vs women" isn't really a good way to out someone as "objectifying" women. If it's even objectification really.

A straight man naturally won't desire to hug another man, unless he's some old college pal he hadn't seen in a while, and it's more of a shoulder to shoulder buddy hug if anything...or just a firm handshake.

I am wondering how would desiring affection from a woman and try to spin it as objectification. I just sometimes have my moments.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, the whole question of "Do you desire hugging men, vs women" isn't really a good way to out someone as "objectifying" women. If it's even objectification really.

A straight man naturally won't desire to hug another man, unless he's some old college pal he hadn't seen in a while, and it's more of a shoulder to shoulder buddy hug if anything...or just a firm handshake.

I am wondering how would desiring affection from a woman and try to spin it as objectification. I just sometimes have my moments.

and really the bro hug is about as physically affectionate as a man can get with another man before it gets awkward and uncomfortable for 95% of situations.

The only real situations where you can really have another man comfort you and it doesn't seem really awkward or weird.. is if you're in a battlefield situation where comrades might hold hands as their brother is wounded and needing someone to stay with him or maybe just to be there for them when they're dying.

But a bro just having a stressful day at work? You're not gonna find dudes rubbing each other's shoulders. Maybe if they're a chiropracter and this is an appointment... but even father son aren't gonna get that intimate with each other.
But a man will still want to be comforted by touch and get physical friendly affection.
It's just more appropriate if it's from a woman, even if there's no sexual attraction.

With man to man.. it's more than there just not being any sexual attraction, it's that well, the best way I can word it is that there's a natural repulsion between men, a natural desire to want to keep your distance from other men. Men in your family and very good friends you are actually OVERCOMING that repulsion just to greet each other with a handshake and maybe a hug. That much in itself is already pushing boundaries that we set up between ourselves naturally.

Maybe it's because we subconsciously see other men as competition rather than friends, or even adversaries and threats, the handshake gesture, and waving to each other gestures were in the past, gestures to show the other man you didn't have a weapon in your hand and so you weren't going to kill them. The hand salute done by the military, comes from when knights wearing full helmets with movable visors would raise their visor to show their face to someone as a sign of respect.

 

[RDKirk]

and really the bro hug is about as physically affectionate as a man can get with another man before it gets awkward and uncomfortable for 95% of situations.

The only real situations where you can really have another man comfort you and it doesn't seem really awkward or weird.. is if you're in a battlefield situation where comrades might hold hands as their brother is wounded and needing someone to stay with him or maybe just to be there for them when they're dying.

But a bro just having a stressful day at work? You're not gonna find dudes rubbing each other's shoulders. Maybe if they're a chiropracter and this is an appointment... but even father son aren't gonna get that intimate with each other.
But a man will still want to be comforted by touch and get physical friendly affection.
It's just more appropriate if it's from a woman, even if there's no sexual attraction.

With man to man.. it's more than there just not being any sexual attraction, it's that well, the best way I can word it is that there's a natural repulsion between men, a natural desire to want to keep your distance from other men. Men in your family and very good friends you are actually OVERCOMING that repulsion just to greet each other with a handshake and maybe a hug. That much in itself is already pushing boundaries that we set up between ourselves naturally.

Maybe it's because we subconsciously see other men as competition rather than friends, or even adversaries and threats, the handshake gesture, and waving to each other gestures were in the past, gestures to show the other man you didn't have a weapon in your hand and so you weren't going to kill them. The hand salute done by the military, comes from when knights wearing full helmets with movable visors would raise their visor to show their face to someone as a sign of respect.

I will point out that in Middle Eastern, African, Far Eastern, and some southern European societies, you will find men walking down the sidewalk holding hands, arm-in-arm, or arms around soldiers (even cops and soldiers)....so it's not a matter of genetics.

 

[Jamdoc]

I will point out that in Middle Eastern, African, Far Eastern, and some southern European societies, you will find men walking down the sidewalk holding hands, arm-in-arm, or arms around soldiers (even cops and soldiers)....so it's not a matter of genetics.

which far eastern? Cause Japanese tend to show less physical affection even between men and women, they don't even handshake, they do a bow.

Middle Eastern is.. well...
I can say that within Islam, women are basically seen as beneath men, and it stems from their interpretation of the fall of man. They blame Eve (where the reality is that God considers it Adam's sin because while Eve was deceived into eating, Adam chose to sin willingly, probably to stay with Eve, choosing his wife over even eternal life.), so as a result they see women as incapable of making decisions because they figure, a woman made the decision that resulted in the loss of Eden.
So as a result they are more favorable to male-male affection (even to the extent of "boy play" like the Greeks and Romans, which is one of the reasons the Taliban is popular in Afghanistan, they put an end to the "boy play"). Because women to them are property rather than people, and mostly just for breeding stock.

Don't really know about the Southern European or African. But yeah, I do notice that southern Europeans are more physically affectionate culturally than the north and west and America.

 

[Tom 1]

A straight man naturally won't desire to hug another man

Not true! In a church I was part of for a long time we were a close bunch, as young guys (this was a good while ago), and used to hug. Even in the military, after moments of extreme stress hugging wasn't so unusual, an arm around the shoulder. Physical contact of that kind is underrated, it's part of any bonded relationship.

 

[Tom 1]

and really the bro hug is about as physically affectionate as a man can get with another man before it gets awkward and uncomfortable for 95% of situations.

The only real situations where you can really have another man comfort you and it doesn't seem really awkward or weird.. is if you're in a battlefield situation where comrades might hold hands as their brother is wounded and needing someone to stay with him or maybe just to be there for them when they're dying.

But a bro just having a stressful day at work? You're not gonna find dudes rubbing each other's shoulders. Maybe if they're a chiropracter and this is an appointment... but even father son aren't gonna get that intimate with each other.
But a man will still want to be comforted by touch and get physical friendly affection.
It's just more appropriate if it's from a woman, even if there's no sexual attraction.

With man to man.. it's more than there just not being any sexual attraction, it's that well, the best way I can word it is that there's a natural repulsion between men, a natural desire to want to keep your distance from other men. Men in your family and very good friends you are actually OVERCOMING that repulsion just to greet each other with a handshake and maybe a hug. That much in itself is already pushing boundaries that we set up between ourselves naturally.

Maybe it's because we subconsciously see other men as competition rather than friends, or even adversaries and threats, the handshake gesture, and waving to each other gestures were in the past, gestures to show the other man you didn't have a weapon in your hand and so you weren't going to kill them. The hand salute done by the military, comes from when knights wearing full helmets with movable visors would raise their visor to show their face to someone as a sign of respect.

This describes your experience, not something inherently 'natural'.

 

[RDKirk]

which far eastern? Cause Japanese tend to show less physical affection even between men and women, they don't even handshake, they do a bow.

Korean men will hold hands. I've seen South Korean cops and soldiers walking down the street holding hands. I've seen Japanese men arm-in-arm (close friends of equal status do not bow to one another).

The fact that Middle Eastern men may be misogynists doesn't diminish the fact that they are also men who hold hands, whether Jew, Muslim, or Christian.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Not true! In a church I was part of for a long time we were a close bunch, as young guys (this was a good while ago), and used to hug. Even in the military, after moments of extreme stress hugging wasn't so unusual, an arm around the shoulder. Physical contact of that kind is underrated, it's part of any bonded relationship.

Never really said a man wouldn't want to hug another man, but let me rephrase that...men will typically want hugs or affections from a woman more so in the same fashion as they would from a man.

I recall seeing a couple that I knew, I gave a hand shake, and brought it in for a shoulder bump and back pat with a guy, and gave a nice embrace to his g/f. See the comparison here?

Not sure why some previous poster decided to fault a guy for wanting to get affections from a woman.

 

[Tom 1]

Never really said a man wouldn't want to hug another man, but let me rephrase that...men will typically want hugs or affections from a woman more so in the same fashion as they would from a man.

I recall seeing a couple that I knew, I gave a hand shake, and brought it in for a shoulder bump and back pat with a guy, and gave a nice embrace to his g/f. See the comparison here?

Not sure why some previous poster decided to fault a guy for wanting to get affections from a woman.

Ok I see what you mean. I think there's a fair amount of cultural variation with that kind of thing.

 

[bèlla]

It sounds like you’re looking to use women’s platonic affections to satisfy a non-platonic craving for affection. That sure sounds like objectification to me.

That’s place-holding and a lot of people do it. They try to get their relational needs met through others under the guise of friendship or fellowship.

Oftentimes when a person is alone for long periods they’re loved starved. I encounter it more with men than women. Their emotional needs aren’t sated by their sex. Attention is usually the starting point. If you talk to them long enough you’ll see the hole.

Those with little to no experience with the opposite sex are usually worse. They’re starving and can’t hide it. It spills out and impacts their relating skills. Need is foremost and usually becomes a stumbling block to companionship. They appear desperate. The other side of that coin is fear. Overly cautious, scared, and insecure. The latter may be camouflaged.

The longer they remain in that state the more baggage they accumulate. Rejection takes a toll on the psyche. Some try to compensate through over confidence. But they fall short. Loneliness can’t be hidden. Nor can unhappiness.

It’s a catch-22. The problem lies within. Until they resolve it the without is lacking and the stasis remains. They don’t see themselves. They don’t realize their behavior is strange. They believe the issue lies elsewhere. When you’ve got 5, 10, or 15 under your belt you need to get real. It’s not her. It’s you. Time to face the music.

You can’t come to me with those numbers, no dates, no interest, no relationships, and we’ll talk about God providing and the state of the world. I’m going to ask the question. The one people avoid because they don’t want to hurt their feelings. You can’t move forward until you answer.

Cuddle bunnies keep you in a rut. They won’t tell you your behavior is inappropriate. They downplay it with softer sentiments. Neglecting to call something crazy, stalkerish, obsessive or creepy doesn’t minimize the truth. If your effort is off-putting you need to know it.

When we know the truth the truth sets us free.

 

[bèlla]

Not sure why some previous poster decided to fault a guy for wanting to get affections from a woman.

It wasn't 'a woman'. It was your co-worker. There's a protocol for that environment.

ETA:

Just because you work with someone doesn't mean you're friends.
Just because you have a need doesn't mean they'll meet it or want to.

Your personal struggles aren't your co-workers concern unless they want to get involved. They're familiar strangers. They must make a noticeable effort to develop a connection beyond the workplace. That means quality time outside of it.

 

[Sparagmos]

That’s place-holding and a lot of people do it. They try to get their relational needs met through others under the guise of friendship or fellowship.

Oftentimes when a person is alone for long periods they’re loved starved. I encounter it more with men than women. Their emotional needs aren’t sated by their sex. Attention is usually the starting point. If you talk to them long enough you’ll see the hole.

Those with little to no experience with the opposite sex are usually worse. They’re starving and can’t hide it. It spills out and impacts their relating skills. Need is foremost and usually becomes a stumbling block to companionship. They appear desperate. The other side of that coin is fear. Overly cautious, scared, and insecure. The latter may be camouflaged.

The longer they remain in that state the more baggage they accumulate. Rejection takes a toll on the psyche. Some try to compensate through over confidence. But they fall short. Loneliness can’t be hidden. Nor can unhappiness.

It’s a catch-22. The problem lies within. Until they resolve it the without is lacking and the stasis remains. They don’t see themselves. They don’t realize their behavior is strange. They believe the issue lies elsewhere. When you’ve got 5, 10, or 15 under your belt you need to get real. It’s not her. It’s you. Time to face the music.

You can’t come to me with those numbers, no dates, no interest, no relationships, and we’ll talk about God providing and the state of the world. I’m going to ask the question. The one people avoid because they don’t want to hurt their feelings. You can’t move forward until you answer.

Cuddle bunnies keep you in a rut. They won’t tell you your behavior is inappropriate. They downplay it with softer sentiments. Neglecting to call something crazy, stalkerish, obsessive or creepy doesn’t minimize the truth. If your effort is off-putting you need to know it.

When we know the truth the truth sets us free.

So true! And sometimes the desperately affection-starved man decides his best chance of getting affection is by garnering sympathy. He thinks that if he can reveal his suffering to an object of his desire, she might throw him a bone out of pity. When she doesn’t, the feelings of resentment and entitlement grow.

 

[Sparagmos]

Well, there are differences between men and women and also differences between how men and women interact together, both between men and other men, and women and other women, and between men and women. There's unwritten social "rules" in regards to male to male affection, even a hug is generally reserved for family members or very close friends, and even then, the contact in a man to man hug has its own unwritten rules, IE no caressing with the hands, don't linger for more than 2s, keep waists apart so you know what's don't touch, etc etc. Even if unaware of the social rules involved, most men subconsciously obey them. There's certainly just limited intimacy between men, and most heterosexual men, really don't desire any more intimacy than that with other men.

as to why women are more comfortable with higher intimacy between themselves? I have no idea, that's a mystery to me.

hugs between a man and woman, even as platonic friends, will have different body language, now if there's no interest beyond that platonic friendship(or they're family) there probably won't be any caressing and there may be back patting instead (whereas between 2 men it's basically a given that they slap each other's backs if they hug), but it's more likely to be a tighter hug, and linger a bit longer. It's just less awkward and rigid feeling, less like you're both subconsciously following a rulebook to not give anyone watching the wrong idea.

Even if it's a woman who is totally off limits IE married right in front of her husband, or a woman who is definitely "not in a million years" 0 interest at all even if she threw herself at you.. it's still more comfortable and less awkward than hugging male friends.. maybe your father and your brothers .. that's about the only exceptions, and even then, that's debatable. Being that my father's dead and was out of my life by the time I was in school... and I have no brothers I can't really say for sure.

I mean, I don't even hug my uncles, but my aunts want me to hug them when saying goodbye after a visit, and sure, I'm fine with that.

It's just different, even without any possibility of sexual activity the interactions and affection are different.

in case you're baffled at the idea that there's actual man hug etiquette...

Can you see how much of what you wrote goes back to making sure the hug or affection isn’t gay? If lingering more than two seconds between two men is sexual to you, then the same act with a woman is sexual. And I mean that in a neutral sense, no judgement. Women have the same aversion to hugging you as you do with men. If we hug a male co-worker, it could be read as sexual and in most cases we don’t want that. But my guess is that you would be OK with it. You’re leaving her wishes out of it when you crave that hug from her.