Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[Guojing]

They weren't talking about the same thing. Paul was talking about the mechanism of salvation--soteriology. Paul explicitly defined "works" for his Romans argument as the effort for which a person expected to be paid--within his Romans argument, the expected (in vain) "payment" by people doing such work being eternal life.

James was talking about the appearance of engendered in a person after salvation, which Paul also addressed at various times, such as Ephesians 2.

Would you agree that Paul is saying faith without works will save in romans 4:5?

 

[Guojing]

It's not about choice.

Salvation is described as being born again.

When a baby is in a womb it does not have choice, the circumstances that placed the baby in the womb were out of it's control, but the baby comes out and begins to breathe anyway.

Faith is like breathing.

it's not about choice, it's all about a new life.

Does an unbeliever need to believe the gospel first, before he can be born again?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Does an unbeliever need to believe the gospel first, before he can be born again?

Peter wasn't finished preaching yet, and Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit. Based on this example, I would deduce it is not always necessary. The inward transformation is what matters.

 

[RDKirk]

Peter wasn't finished preaching yet, and Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit. Based on this example, I would deduce it is not always necessary. The inward transformation is what matters.

I would say that a person does need to believe in the gospel, but the gospel is actually a lot slimmer than most people tend to think.

Clearly, Cornelius and the Philippian jailer had heard and believed enough gospel, even though neither had gotten the apostles' intended "full spiels."

I believe this has to do with prior enablement by the Lord that Jesus spoke of.

 

[RDKirk]

Would you agree that Paul is saying faith without works will save in romans 4:5?

Paul crafts a series of logical arguments in Romans (I suspect the same arguments he made in synagogue after synagogue). As a logical argument, he explicitly defines his terms.

I believe Paul's use of the word "work" in Romans is specifically and narrowly exactly what he defines it to be within his Romans argument. Paul is talking about acts that people perform in the expectation of obligating God to grant them eternal life.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

the gospel is actually a lot slimmer than most people tend to think.

Agreed.

 

[Guojing]

Paul crafts a series of logical arguments in Romans (I suspect the same arguments he made in synagogue after synagogue). As a logical argument, he explicitly defines his terms.

I believe Paul's use of the word "work" in Romans is specifically and narrowly exactly what he defines it to be within his Romans argument. Paul is talking about acts that people perform in the expectation of obligating God to grant them eternal life.

so is that a yes or no answer to my question?

 

[Guojing]

Peter wasn't finished preaching yet, and Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit. Based on this example, I would deduce it is not always necessary. The inward transformation is what matters.

I see. Would that view be considered as universalism?

 

[RDKirk]

so is that a yes or no answer to my question?

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

It wasn't actually a "yes" or "no" question.

 

[RDKirk]

Michael Collum said: ↑
Peter wasn't finished preaching yet, and Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit. Based on this example, I would deduce it is not always necessary. The inward transformation is what matters.

I see. Would that view be considered as universalism?

No, that would not be universalism.

Is there going to be an end or a point to your "gotcha" games?

 

[Guojing]

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

It wasn't actually a "yes" or "no" question.

Would you agree that Paul is saying faith without works will save in romans 4:5?

Isn't that a yes or no question?

My answer is a yes, in case you are wondering.

 

[RDKirk]

Would you agree that Paul is saying faith without works will save in romans 4:5?

Isn't that a yes or no question?

My answer is a yes, in case you are wondering.

No, it's not a "yes/no" question because I already know the rhetorical game you're playing...or rather, I've seen that game often enough that your question certainly smells like it.

Paul is saying that a person cannot do any particular work that obligates God to grant him salvation.

 

[Guojing]

No, it's not a "yes/no" question because I already know the rhetorical game you're playing...or rather, I've seen that game often enough that your question certainly smells like it.

Paul is saying that a person cannot do any particular work that obligates God to grant him salvation.

I think what you are ultimately trying to say is that Paul does not contradict James.

Am I correct?

 

[RDKirk]

I think what you are ultimately trying to say is that Paul does not contradict James.

Am I correct?

I said that back in post #180

 

[Guojing]

I said that back in post #180

Alright I understand your doctrine then. Thanks for clarifying

 

[A_Thinker]

You are not familiar with Matthew 25:31-46 Did you need me to quote the entire passage?

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

You seem to believe that these works will come automatically to anyone with faith? That no one with faith will not do these works?

And you seem to be telling me that people will be saved because they visited the sick (among other things).

Is that what you believe ? That anyone who has offered kindness to another is saved ?

This is the question ... does a sheep act like a sheep ... because it is a sheep ?

Or ... is a sheep ... a sheep ... because it acts like a sheep ?

 

[Guojing]

And you seem to be telling me that people will be saved because they visited (among other things) the sick.

Is that what you believe ? That anyone who has offered kindness to another is saved ?

This is the question ... does a sheep act like a sheep ... because it is a sheep ?

Or ... is a sheep ... a sheep ... because it acts like a sheep ?

As I have repeatedly said, during the Tribulation, if a gentile wants to be saved in the end, faith alone is no longer sufficient, unlike what we have now. That was what James meant in James 2.

During then, faith AND works are required for salvation, and Jesus said it clearly in Matthew 25:31-46, one of those works is for gentiles to take care of Jews, the latter whom the Anti-Christ would be persecuting thru the Tribulation.

For you, since you adopt covenant theology, you have to insert their covenant of grace into understanding what Matthew 25:31-46 is saying. That is why you are having this "does sheep act like a sheep because it is a sheep" thinking.

 

[A_Thinker]

Well the context that started this was what James stated in James 2, faith without works is dead.

So if there is no free will, James cannot be stating that. Faith and works are separated, you can have faith but if you have no works to show during the tribulation, your faith is dead and cannot save you.

What believer has not performed works commensurate to his/her faith ?

The average believer performs acts of faith daily. Maybe nothing earth-shattering, but prayers, kindnesses to others, attention to responsibilities, church attendance, etc. ... are performed, typically, on a daily basis.

There is so much, as believers, which we are commanded to do ... and not do. Do you believe that there exist those who claim Christ, ... but somehow have missed performing any of what He has commanded ? Even unbelievers behave well sometimes. Which is why Christ's response to many who will claim association with Him by citing their works will be ... "Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you."

If you can find a believer who has performed no acts of faith since rebirth, ... then you truly have justification to doubt his/her salvation.

Most people are a mixed bag of good and not so good performance. What makes the difference to God is faith. That's clear all through the scriptures ... you cannot please God by ignoring Him, no matter how many good deeds you perform. God's desire, above all else, is relationship with us ... and if we are disinterested, He will let us go our own way. Whether we perform a few good works along the way will not matter if you have rejected Christ, ... Who gave His life for you.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I see. Would that view be considered as universalism?

No, it's what happened in scripture.

 

[A_Thinker]

As I have repeatedly said, during the Tribulation, if a gentile wants to be saved in the end, faith alone is no longer sufficient, unlike what we have now. That was what James meant in James 2.

James said nothing in regard to any future period of Tribulation. James was, merely, trying to get his fellow new believers ... to act like believers. James said, very reasonably ... if we, as believers, are uncharitable to those around us ... and even to each other, that is a poor reflection on God's kingdom ... and a poor representation to display ... as we are trying to draw others to Christ.

Christ explicitly said that "one's nature determines commensurate fruit".
Good trees do not produce wicked fruit ... and bad trees don't produce good fruit." One cannot gather grapes from thorns and thistles. And Paul said that our salvation ... is a gift from God obtained through faith ... and not through works. But he went on to say that God's gift of salvation (His workmanship, not ours) ... will generate Christ-like works in us ... that we might fulfill His will.