Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[Guojing]

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I already stated that will be true during the Tribulation period. For example in Matthew 25:31-46, gentiles who want to be saved must help Jesus's brethren, the Jews.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Faith without works is dead was true in time past, and will be true in the age to come.

Since God will be visible in the next age, it's not really faith - now is it?

 

[Guojing]

Since God will be visible in the next age, it's not really faith - now is it?

I think you might be talking about the millennial reign of Christ.

But during the Tribulation for example, which most of us believe it will be 7 years, God will only appear at the end of the Tribulation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think you might be talking about the millennial reign of Christ.

But during the Tribulation for example, which most of us believe it will be 7 years, God will only appear at the end of the Tribulation.

Actually, after the sixth seal, God becomes visible even to the unbelievers.

The seven year tribulation is a fabrication.

 

[Guojing]

Actually, after the sixth seal, God becomes visible even to the unbelievers.

The seven year tribulation is a fabrication.

How about this, even after God is visible, you need to show faith in God, by not taking the mark of the beast? (Revelation 14:9-12)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

How about this, even after God is visible, you need to show faith in God, by not taking the mark of the beast? (Revelation 14:9-12)

Apparently, only those sealed by God are immune to the deception, so it's not really a choice.

 

[Guojing]

Apparently, only those sealed by God are immune to the deception, so it's not really a choice.

So you have the doctrine that true believers won't take the mark in the Tribulation, because they won't have a choice to do so?

 

[A_Thinker]

The sheep and the goat judgement at the end of the Tribulation, described in Matthew 25:31-46, did Jesus meant what he said there?

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How are we judged righteous ?

 

[A_Thinker]

So you have the doctrine that true believers won't take the mark in the Tribulation, because they won't have a choice to do so?

They will know not to do so ...

 

[RDKirk]

So you have the doctrine that true believers won't take the mark in the Tribulation, because they won't have a choice to do so?

I would say that those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells will not be deceived...but that may not exclude them taking the mark willingly. The work of the Holy Spirit can be "quenched," and consciences can be "seared."

 

[Guojing]

They will know not to do so ...

Yep, that is how many covenant theologians use to still hold to that doctrine that "salvation is still by faith alone, apart from works" even in the Tribulation.

Their argument goes like this

True believers, who were saved by faith alone, will not take the mark of the beast.
If they do take the mark of the beast, then they are not really true believers.

To me that argument is circular, but it may work for you.

 

[Guojing]

I would say that those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells will not be deceived...but that may not exclude them taking the mark willingly. The work of the Holy Spirit can be "quenched," and consciences can be "seared."

So would you agree that those who believe in Christ, say at the beginning of the Tribulation, cannot be sure that they are saved, until the end of the Tribulation?

 

[Guojing]

How are we judged righteous ?

As Jesus stated clearly in that passage

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus brethren are the Jews.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So you have the doctrine that true believers won't take the mark in the Tribulation, because they won't have a choice to do so?

I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

Thus not a choice.

(not big on that term True believers, since it's very loaded)

In terms of people who have been born again by the Holy Spirit in this era, they just won't do it. So not a choice either.

In terms of people who are religious but didn't get born again by the Holy Spirit, then they are subject to Revelation 13:16, so not a choice either.

 

[Guojing]

In terms of people who have been born again by the Holy Spirit in this era, they just won't do it. So not a choice either.

Interesting, can you explain what exactly do you mean then when you say "they just won't do it, So not a choice either."?

When someone read you stating that, they cannot conclude that you are saying "they won't have a choice"?

What is the difference?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Interesting, can you explain what exactly do you mean then when you say "they just won't do it, So not a choice either."?

When someone read you stating that, they cannot conclude that you are saying "they won't have a choice"?

What is the difference?

They won't have a choice removes the role of the Holy Spirit from the relationship of the steps taken. That's the main difference.

 

[RDKirk]

So would you agree that those who believe in Christ, say at the beginning of the Tribulation, cannot be sure that they are saved, until the end of the Tribulation?

I would say that I can't be sure they are saved.

I think they can be sure, one way or the other. And, of course, God has always known.

 

[Guojing]

They won't have a choice removes the role of the Holy Spirit from the relationship of the steps taken. That's the main difference.

Are you thinking in terms of that argument I presented earlier to another? Let me phrase to match the terms that you are using here.

People who have been born again by the Holy Spirit in this era will not take the mark of the beast.
If they do take the mark of the beast, then they are not really born again by the Holy Spirit

Is that your argument?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are you thinking in terms of that argument I presented earlier to another? Let me phrase to match the terms that you are using here.

People who have been born again by the Holy Spirit in this era will not take the mark of the beast.
If they do take the mark of the beast, then they are not really born again by the Holy Spirit

Is that your argument?

I'm not making an argument from my estimations, you just seem to be contentious by nature.

 

[Guojing]

I would say that I can't be sure they are saved.

I think they can be sure, one way or the other. And, of course, God has always known.

But you can be sure that you are saved, because you know for sure you won't be taking the mark of the beast?