Why I don't believe in evolution...

[Job 33:6]

You come at the text with the wrong assumptions. You talk about what the ancient Hebrews didn't know. But it was not the ancient Hebrews who wrote the Bible. It was the Holy Spirit, God, who knows everything.

And how do you propose that the Holy Spirit wrote scripture but not with the hands and through the limited mind of Hebrews?

There's literally nothing in Genesis that suggests that they didn't view the firmament as a solid dome with windows, that birds flew across the face of, as it is written in scripture.

In contrast, historical records, world wide, of every prehistoric people's we know of that lived at the time in which Genesis was written, all suggest that earth was flat and that there was a firmament or dome, that was solid, that rested above the land. Hence why Genesis speaks of windows in the firmament and pillars which hold up the heavens.

You're not taking scripture at its word but rather you're trying to rewrite it to fit your current modern scientific understanding of space and the universe. Remember, the ancient Hebrews didn't know about the theory of gravity or general relativity. These objects of space rested upon or were pinned to a solid structure, the firmament, which held the waters above and oceans and heavens above, which rotated. That if you walked in one direction long enough, you might reach the end of earth and might then move into the realm of heavenly figures. And hell of course was underground where there is magma and heat.

And only by reading the original Hebrew and by reading contemporary texts of that time, can this be seen quite clearly. Modern translations in large part have omitted or removed original hebrew text, or have adjusted the translations into modern words such as "earth" as if the authors knew that the planet was a globe.

Which is why I asked the question, what exactly do you think is meant by windows in the firmament, which separated the waters from the waters? Or pillars that held up the heavens? What do you think these terms mean? If Genesis is truly meant to be taken as literal truth? What are these windows in which water passes through? What are these birds flying across the face of? Were you using translations of the Bible that exclude some of the original Hebrew writings? See Genesis 1:20 and Genesis 7:11. And read the actual hebrew, not modern translations. "Across the face" implying something separate with a flatness, of the firmament, the dome, the spread metal (see original Babylonian word for "tin", of the heavens (separate from the heavens which separates the waters from the waters).

And with that said, this is what the original authors believed. So when they say that a flood covered the lands, you have to understand that this doesn't mean that it covered the whole earth because that's not what was written and it's not what it says and it's not what the authors knew or believed. It's a revision, a modern revision by people who don't want to acknowledge the true history of scripture and of Gods word. A revision of divine scripture by modern scientifically "enlightened" people who think they know better.

If the scriptures weren't written through man's limited mind, then there wouldn't even be terms about windows and domes and birds flying across the face of the dome, and pillars holding up the heavens. These are all terms that originated via people's understanding of creation at that time, at the time in which it was written. This is God's word but understand that mankind is the medium in which it passes through.

The rest of your response goes on to discuss the Gospel, NT and prophecies of Christ. But let's stick with the topic. It's simple and straight forward, Genesis says what it says.

YECs always want to talk about how scripture should be taken literally at face value, but then when it comes down to actually doing so, they want to turn a blind eye.

The original scripture isn't meant to be a scientific textbook. But that's what a lot of Christians are trying to make it out to be, they're trying to make scripture compete against a scientific textbook which is a very dark road. But this literal position just isn't what God intended.

 

[The Barbarian]

You're not taking scripture at its word but rather you're trying to rewrite it to fit your current modern understanding.

That's the odd thing about strict literalists. They think the Bible is always literal, except when a literal understanding of the text doesn't fit their conceptions of things.

YECs always want to talk about how scripture should be taken literally at face value, but then when it comes down to actually doing so, they want to turn a blind eye.

Yes, that's the way it is.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's the odd thing about strict literalists. They think the Bible is always literal, except when a literal understanding of the text doesn't fit their conceptions of things.



Yes, that's the way it is.

It's absolutely awful and a shame is what it is.

9 times out of 10 I found that modern bible translations oftentimes would literally omit Hebrew words to transform the original meaning to meet the current scientific understanding of creation. As if scripture has become a scientific text book.

It's no wonder that YECs are in such a conflicting dilemma against both OT scholars and scientists. We've done it to ourselves in our re-writing of the original language.

Adding the word "earth" as if it were a global planet, when the original authors knew of no such thing, and wrote of no such thing.

The firmament and dome, either omitted or re written to mean sky or heavens, undistinguished from the firmament. Though scripture in its original Hebrew clearly distinguishes between firmament and heavens and the firmament separating the waters from the waters. Birds rather than across the face of the dome of the heavens, flying in the heavens with no dome at all.

It's all just modern revisions due to modern scientific advances.

It is literally man's word and man's interpretation over the original writings of scripture.

But the implications are too difficult for YECs to accept. So instead they act like it just isn't true and act like modern re-writes are more accurate than original hebrew.

I could re-write Genesis to say that in the beginning God created the Universe (instead of heavens) and the Spherical Planet Earth. But that's just not what the original scripture says. And to say otherwise is to transform its original meaning based on man's current knowledge.

 

[Semper-Fi]

I don't see how all that dancing converts "erets" into "tevel."

6 Whereby the world G2889 that then was,
being overflowed with water, perished:G622


9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven
be gathered together unto one place, and let
the dry land appear: and it was so.

Later All the dry land under heaven was flooded.

So again what is your take on the meaning of under heaven ?
So Noah and the bible lies when it says only Noah and company ?

Everything under heaven with the breath of life dies.
All the hills under heaven covered.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Scientific Evidence for a Worldwide Flood – Earth Age

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't see how all that dancing converts "erets" into "tevel." It's still true that the Bible says the land was covered with water, but it doesn't say the whole world was covered by water. That is man's revision of God's word. Your first shows from Peter 3:6 about the "world." But he wrote in Koine Greek, κόσμος (cosmos). The same word was used by Luke to describe the Roman empire.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

A different word entirely. It meant the Mediterranean world, essentially the Roman Empire.

6 Whereby the world G2889 that then was,
being overflowed with water, perished:G622

See above. You've confused Hebrew with Koine Greek. "κόσμος" means something very different than "tevel." Read it again.

 

[Semper-Fi]

See above. You've confused Hebrew with Koine Greek.

So again what is your take on the meaning of under heaven ?
So Noah and the bible lies when it says only Noah and company ?

God made dry land, later he flooded the dry land.

 

[Job 33:6]

I don't see how all that dancing converts "erets" into "tevel." It's still true that the Bible says the land was covered with water, but it doesn't say the whole world was covered by water. That is man's revision of God's word. Your first shows from Peter 3:6 about the "world." But he wrote in Koine Greek, κόσμος (cosmos). The same word was used by Luke to describe the Roman empire.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

A different word entirely. It meant the Mediterranean world, essentially the Roman Empire.



See above. You've confused Hebrew with Koine Greek. "κόσμος" means something very different than "tevel." Read it again.

This is correct.

In addition:

That's actually an interesting word. It's used a lot in the book of John, but rather than referring to a literal globe, oftentimes it is also referred to the world meaning sinful people who rejected the Lord. 1 John 3:13, Do not be surprised brothers, if the world hates you.

It's not like a scientific global planet, but rather it's referring to The local or regional community of people at that time, that rejected Jesus.

 

[The Barbarian]

Scientific Evidence for a Worldwide Flood – Earth Age

Well, let's take a look at those...

Polystrate Fossils:
Upright Fossil Tree crossing multiple layers of rock strata One of the strongest pieces of evidence for a worldwide flood is the existence of what Rupke termed “polystrate fossils.” Such fossils are found all over the world: especially in and around coal seams. They are often in the form of fossil trees that were buried upright and which often cross multiple layers of strata such as sandstone, shale, limestone and even coal beds.

There are polystrate fossils in the making just a mile or so from my house, where trees killed by rising waters of a dam are now being slowly buried in decades of sediment, layer by layer. No one familiar with such processes is surprised by this. Your guys just assumed that the process in that lake would be impossible. But there it is.

The Fossils Themselves:
Fossils don’t form on lake bottoms today, nor are they found forming on the bottom of the sea.

As you see, they are forming on a lake bottom today near my home. But it's not just there. Hypoxic lakes are constantly forming fossils as living things die and fall to the bottom to be slowly covered by sediment.

Fossils are being formed in barrier reefs, as the coral grows up and sand and other sediment buries shells and other organisms. When the United states tested a nuclear weapon at Enitiwok atoll, they drilled down through nearly a mile of fossil remains until they hit volcanic rock of the slowly subsiding crater. The fossils at the top of the column were just more recent than the lower ones. And new fossils were being made at the very top.

Clastic Dikes:
Clastic dikes present a problem to the “mythions of years” mindset of evolution in that massive “older” sediments are found intruding up into overlying younger strata. This must have occurred while the “older” sediments were still in a plastic state. This is clearly brought out in a book on this subject by Dr. John Morris on this same subject: i.e. on the Age of the Earth.

No, that's wrong:
A clastic dike is a seam of sedimentary material that fills an open fracture in and cuts across sedimentary rock strata or layering in other rock types. Clastic dikes form rapidly by fluidized injection (mobilization of pressurized pore fluids) or passively by water, wind, and gravity (sediment swept into open cracks). Diagenesis may play a role in the formation of some dikes.[1] Clastic dikes are commonly vertical or near-vertical. Centimeter-scale widths are common, but thicknesses range from millimetres to metres. Length is usually many times width.
Clastic dike - Wikipedia

As you see, it happens when sediment is introduced into cracks in older rock.

Mt. St. Helens:
Three separate eruptions at Mount St. Helens produced sedimentary-type layers hundreds of feet thick. One of these was a hurricane velocity deposit that produced thousands of thin laminations up to 25 feet thick. The third eruption was a lava flow, which turned into a hot mud-flow as it crossed the Toutle River. This hot mud flow not only diverted the river, but carved a 17 mile long series of canyons (up to 140 feet deep) in a matter of hours. They call it the Little Grand Canyon of the Toutle River.”

I've been there, and you're wrong. There is no 140 foot deep canyon of soft sediment. It slumps rapidly and does not form steep canyon walls. The blast did carve some fairly deep gullies in old pumice (very soft volcanic rock)

We see no sign of the sort of erosion found in ancient canyons:

These can be up to 1/4 mile in height, almost vertical, and cutting through hard rock including volcanic rock. Notice the wandring river bed. This is not caused by a sudden rush of water, but can only happen very gradually under particular circumstances. Normally a mature river meanders, moving the channel over time. But if the land is being uplifted, as we see in the Grand Canyon area, the river is "rejuvinated" cuts deeper into the existing channel, and is trapped in that channel, only able to go deeper and deeper into the underlying rock.

Spontaneous Sorting of Layers:
We see this happening wherever a stream slows down and drops sediment. The coarsest material drops out first, followed by finer and finer grains. No one is surprised that this happens.

But it's not universally true of all sediments in all situations. In drumlins, for example there is no such sorting; the different sizes are mixed together. It has nothing to do with evolution or the age of the Earth.

And so on with the rest.

This guy seems to have just thrown up all sorts of things, hoping one or more of them would actually work. If you think any of the others support your beliefs, pick out one,and we'll look at it.

 

[Job 33:6]

So again what is your take on the meaning of under heaven ?
So Noah and the bible lies when it says only Noah and company ?

God made dry land, later he flooded the dry land.

Barbarian is correct. You're deferring to Greek in an effort to talk about Hebrew.

The land below heaven was believed to be horizontally limited in expanse, meaning that you could walk to the end of it, by those who authored Genesis. The authors were referring to the land around them, not a global planetary flood. They believed of no such thing as, and were unaware of a spherical planet.

 

[The Barbarian]

That's actually an interesting word. It's used a lot in the book of John, but rather than referring to a literal globe, oftentimes it is also referred to the world meaning sinful people who rejected the Lord. 1 John 3:13, Do not be surprised brothers, if the world hates you.

Yes. It's the Greek "κόσμος" (cosmos), and it has precisely the meaning that you mentioned. It is perhaps best expressed as "the Mediterranean world." The known world at the time, including the people, cultures, and government. It is very different than the Hebrew "tevel", which means the physical world as a whole.

 

[The Barbarian]

So again what is your take on the meaning of under heaven ?

Remember, the Hebrews assumed a flat Earth, under a solid dome of the sky, with windows in it, through which rain fell. And heaven was above that.

So it's a reference to that belief.

So Noah and the bible lies when it says only Noah and company ?

I don't think your new interpreation is a matter of lying. I think you've made a mistake.

God made dry land, later he flooded the dry land.

Yes, erets. He says he flooded the land. He does not say that He flooded the world (tevel).

 

[Semper-Fi]

Remember, the Hebrews assumed a flat Earth, under a solid dome of the sky, with windows in it, through which rain fell. And heaven was above that.

So it's a reference to that belief.

There is 3 heavens, the birds fly in the first heaven,
we breath air from the first heaven, that's above the earth.

So how would you explain the Earth’s atmosphere,
and space beyond the atmosphere in writing ?

You can look at a picture of the Earth’s atmosphere
and see a dome like shape over the whole earth.

"The atmosphere of Earth protects life on Earth by creating
pressure allowing for liquid water to exist on the Earth's
surface, absorbing ultraviolet solar radiation, warming
the surface through heat retention (greenhouse effect),
and reducing temperature extremes between day and night.."

Your local flood myth Still does not explain how,

Everything under heaven with the breath of life dies.
And All the hills under heaven where covered with water.

I don't think your new interpreation is a matter of lying.
I think you've made a mistake.

Genesis 7:23 "and Noah only remained alive,
and they that were with him in the ark."

Please give your interpretation of this verse then.

Yes, erets. He says he flooded the land.
He does not say that He flooded the world (tevel).

If you flood all the dry land under heaven with water
you have a world wide flood over the earth.

"And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering
together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw
that it was good. Genesis 1:10 (KJV)

"all in whose nostrils was the breath of life,
of all that was in the dry land, died."

The earth was covered with water,
then God made the dry land appear.
Then God flooded the dry land with water.

So even if you use your "land" argument
"Whereby the "land" that then was,
being overflowed with water, perished"

 

[Lost4words]

Branson and Bezos have seen the curve! Soon, many more will, now that space flight is opening up to the 'general public'.

Egg on face time for flat earth believers!

 

[The Barbarian]

You can look at a picture of the Earth’s atmosphere and see a dome like shape over the whole earth.

Sure. Your senses tell you that the Earth is flat and covered by a solid dome. The Israelites assumed windows in the dome through which rain falls to earth, and put that in the Bible, too.

You're focusing on things that don't matter, and ignoring God's message in Scripture.

 

[The Barbarian]

If you flood all the dry land under heaven with water
you have a world wide flood over the earth.

That's what would have happened if the Earth was flat and as small as the Israelites assumed. But God knew better. This is why He said "land", not "world."

Scripture does not say the whole world was flooded. That is man's revision of God's word.

 

[Job 33:6]

If you flood all the dry land under heaven with water
you have a world wide flood over the earth.

The word land, does not equate to earth, nor does all land equate to earth. All land as far as the Hebrews knew, was a local flat region that had barriers that if you walked far enough, you would reach the end of it. It was limited in distance in each direction. And nothing in scripture suggests otherwise, while everything in historical writings and in scripture suggests that this is the case. Hence why the dome had windows for water to fall through, and the heavens were held up by pillars, and birds flew across the face of the dome.

All of this suggests that authors of Genesis did not mean "earth" when they referred to land. But rather they were referring to their local region. And nothing in scripture suggests otherwise.

 

[The Barbarian]

All of this suggests that authors of Genesis did not mean "earth" when they referred to land. But rather they were referring to their local region. And nothing in scripture suggests otherwise.

Yes. Hence "erets Israel" (the land of Israel). No one thought that was the who world.

Genesis 2:11 The name of the one is Phison: that is it which compasseth all the land (erets) of Hevilath, where gold groweth.

2 Samuel 22:16 And the overflowings of the sea appeared, and the foundations of the world (tebel)were laid open at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of the spirit of his wrath.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes. Hence "erets Israel" (the land of Israel). No one thought that was the who world.

Genesis 2:11 The name of the one is Phison: that is it which compasseth all the land (erets) of Hevilath, where gold groweth.

2 Samuel 22:16 And the overflowings of the sea appeared, and the foundations of the world (tebel)were laid open at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of the spirit of his wrath.

Ah yes. The word used in Genesis 2:11 is the same word used in Genesis 1:10. Land of Hevilath, and God called the dry ground "land".

I was reading the translation of Genesis 1:10 and it read like "God called the dry [insert word for ground or that which is dry] "land" ". The video detailed it perfectly.

No mention of a Global planet earth, anywhere to be seen nor read.

"Earth" is just this purely scientifically modern concept of a spherical planet that just didn't exist back then.

It's a combination of both recognition of God's authority over creation, while still taking on a position in which God's Word operates through the medium of pre-scientific people.

 

[coffee4u]

I believe with all my heart that naturalism is the great delusion of these last days.

I see naturism as the foundation or the stage for the delusion to come Yes it is itself a strong delusion but it isn't the end time delusion. What naturalism does is make people ready and willing for the great delusion, for the beast to come.
Rev 3
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Mankind is not going to be swayed by a religious ruler who wants repentance from sins and worship. People won't believe in sin. You can see that happening already. Life styles that were all seen as sins 50 years ago are now seen not only as legitimate choices but things to calibrate. Naturalism has set the stage for this as it allows people to believe God isn't real and neither is sin. The alter of science has freed them from all of that.

So when the world is in chaos from petulance (of which Covid is a taste of things to come) and other things like global warming, humanity will be ripe for something/someone to swoop in and 'save' them from these things. They won't be looking to God because God's was already disproved by naturalism. The doctors and scientists will have shown themselves to not be able to rid the word of disease and global warming. So who else will save them from these things? At that point I think the world would be ripe for the beast. I think this is what the beast will offer, a cure for everything if he is given worship.
They will be so deceived and so desperate that they do as it says.

Naturalism is the stage and mankind is going to dance upon it.