Hello
@swordsman1, this will probably be some of my last responses to you here as I see that this discussion with you is getting nowhere and is now simply become circular repetition which is off topic to the OP. As posted in the OP already we know what the early teachings and traditions of some of the early Church were in regard's to their understanding of Revelation 1:10 "the Lords day" being Sunday or the first day of the week is already this was never in dispute. The purpose of this OP evaluate these claims to see if they are support by the scriptures or not supported in scripture.
Lets be honest here. There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that supports the teaching and tradition that "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is "the Lords day" and if there is no scripture to support this teaching why not be honest here and simply just say so?
Instead of providing scripture to prove that the teaching and tradition of the early Church is supported by scripture all you have provided in this thread are questionable ambiguous references from the early Church from sources
outside of the bible that is
not scripture which are not definitive evidence showing that the scripture reference of "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is a reference to Sunday or the first day of the week.
Now the only way that definitive evidence can be provided to prove that "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week is by proving that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week from the scriptures. As we are discussing the scriptural meaning of "the Lords day" from the scriptures. All you have continued to provided in external references from the early Church which is what some people thought the meaning the Lords day was. This is the opinions of men outside of scripture that do not supply any scripture for their interpretation that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week.
Now the objective of the OP as posted earlier is to show from scripture that "the Lords day" as viewed from some in the early Church as "Sunday" or the first day of the week is the scriptural meaning.
So for this reason I am going to ask you to stay on topic to the OP as I have indulged you with your claims in regards to the Didache which I personally believe is a questionable document written by men outside of the bible that is not scripture that mysteriously appeared in the 1800's that is widely dated from 100 to 400 AD and you have been shown that nowhere in the Greek does Didache 14.1 even mention "the Lords day" and that it was a supplied word that is not supported by any evidence or
reference point to time to allow it's inclusion into an English translation. So at best all you have is a questionable document outside of the scriptures with no date or author that is
not indisputable evidence as it is a document that has been widely disputed.
I will post on a few more of your claims here in this post then would like to ask that you respect this OP and stop seeking to take it off topic and that we return back to the OP which is asking for scriptural evidence that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day". If you would like to continue the discussion please start up your own thread on the Didache and send me a link and I will be happy to continue the discussion with you there.
Once again, there is no disagreement as what some of the teachings and traditions of some in the early Church where and that some believed that "the Lords day" in Revelation 1:10 was a reference to Sunday or the first day of the week. The purpose of this OP however is to show from the scriptures that "the Lords day" as taught by the teachings and traditions of the early Church is Sunday or the first day of the week. This OP is to see if these claims and teachings are supported by scripture or not.
I'm afraid you are wrong. As I've already explained to you there is no scholarly criticism of the translations of Did 1:14 in that Wikipedia page.
Nope I am afraid you are wrong here as shown in the post you are quoting from wiki under the section of
Ambiguous references in the section of Didache 14:1 posts that according to the Greek translation; "The term "Lord's" appears in The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles or Didache, a document dated between 70 and 120. Didache 14:1a is translated by Roberts as, "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving"; another translation begins, "On the Lord's own day". The first clause in Greek, "
κατά κυριακήν δέ κυρίου", literally means "On the Lord's of the Lord", a unique and unexplained double possessive, and translators supply the
elided noun, e.g., "day" (
ἡμέρα hemera), "commandment" (from the immediately prior verse 13:7), or "doctrine".
[16][17] This is one of two early extrabiblical Christian uses of "κυριακήν" where it does not clearly refer to Sunday because textual readings have given rise to questions of proper translation. Breaking bread (daily or weekly) may refer to Christian fellowship, agape feasts, or Eucharist (cf. Acts 2:42, 20:7)."
As posted earlier various scholars have argued the above for years now. The above is simply a summary of published textual criticism of the translation of Didache 14.1 being "the Lords day" which is not in the original Greek because it has no reference point to time. You were provided evidence of the above argument verbatim in
post # 447 linked from.....
1. The Sabbath in Scripture and History by Professor Kenneth Strand
2. The Lord's day of
Revelation 1:10 the current debate by Professor Ranko Stefanovic
3. From Sabbath to Sunday ... by Dr Samuele Bacchiocci
4. La Liturgie Romaine, 1924, pp. 33-34 by Jean Baptiste Thibaut
5. An Analysis of “the Lord’s day” in the Didache... by Greg Howell from Professor Michael Simmons
These are only a few of many more references of Scholars pointing out that "the Lords day" is not in the original Greek in Didache 14.1 and there is no evidence for it's addition or reference point to time therefore arguing a mistranslation.
You obviosuly haven't read his piece. Even though he is sda, Strand does not say the Didache translations are inaccurate. Quite the opposite. He supports adding the word 'day'!
Well that is not true. I posted what strand says verbatim in the next post in
post # 447 linked...
The Sabbath in Scripture and History by Professor Kenneth Strand
"The
Didache, a sort of baptismal, organizational, or instructional manual, has been dated anywhere from the late first century to the late second century, but the statement in chapter 14 of interest here reads as follows:
Kata kuriakin de kuriou sunaxtlumles klasale arton kai mxaristisate-''On the Lord's of the Lord or "According to the Lord's of the Lord" assemble, break bread, and bold Eucharist." The word "day" (Greek
himeran, in the accusative case) does not actually appear in the text, but most translators have added it in their English translation, making the text read as follows: "On the Lord's day. . . ." Some students of the text would, however, suggest the rendition "According to the Lord's commandment . . ."-also a possible translation of the original Greek. Samuele Bacchiocchi, following a rendition of John Baptiste Thibaut and supponing it with a rather impressive line of evidence, gives a similar translation : ""'
According to the sovereign doctrine of the Lord.""'
As you would expect from an sda, he objects to adding the word 'day' in Did 1:14, but the only reason he gives is because the word does not appear in the Greek. Doh! He is obviously unaware of the Greek day naming customs. He certainly makes no mention of 'reference points'.
Goodness, so your in agreement now but arguing because he is an SDA it cannot be true? Professor Stefanovic is arguing the same point as the
Ambiguous references section on the use of "the Lords day" from Didache 14.1 not being a correct translation of the Greek as all the other scholars that I listed were arguing. It seems you may not be aware of the day naming system in the Hebrew and Jewish culture and biblical texts of the bible. As posted earlier if "day" is not in the original Greek text the reference point used by the translators in adding the English word day needs to be some reference point to time. There is no reference point in the Greek text of Didache 14:1. That is why some scholars have critiqued it as a mistranslation not based on evidence because there is no reference point to time and "Lords day" is not in the original Greek (e.g.
John 20:19 see
Greek context to week here). Now note;
Revelation 1:10 in the Koine Greek is τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "
the Lords day" with ἡμέρᾳ (day) not being a supplied word of the translators but the original Greek text that is not supplied. That is why other scholars have critiqued the Greek translation of Didache 14.1 as Strand and other scholars have noted there is no reference point to time to add in the word [day] there needs to be a reference to time (e.g first day of the week)
That peice was not written by Professor Michael Simmons. it was an essay written by an unqualified student of his called Greg Howell. It has not been peer-reviewed or published by any respected theological journal or book publisher. But even so, he does not claim the word 'day' is a mistranslation of Did 1:14. If you skip to the conclusion you will see he accepts it. And wisely so considering ALL Koine Greek scholars agree that is the correct translation.
Agreed the paper is from the student of Professor Michael Simmons reviewed by the same. This is irrelevant however because as this paper is only a review of scholarly referenced argument showing that "the Lords day" from Didache 14.1 is a mistranslation. Once again your claims here in regards to the conclusions
does not agree with what is written as posted below and no all scholars do not agree that "the Lords day" is a correct translation that is false..
Conclusions
"
In examining the situation from the position of both the primary sources as well as the views found within the interpretations of the secondary sources, there seems to be one generally held consensus; no one is 100% positive how the “Didachist” intended his phrase,“the Lord’s day” to be understood. But a few additional observations seem to rise to the surface as well. First, the existence of the phrase, “the Lord’s day” shows a level of familiarity within both the writers and the readers of second century Christianity. Whether or not this is evidence that it was universally attributable to only a single interpretation, I doubt this a great deal.
Considering the malleability of language and the slow progress of theological formulation I believe that any universal interpretation of the Didache’s phrase was somewhere along its own evolutionary timeline, not at its end.Secondly, the fact that writers such as Justin Martyr, Ignatius and others were already making polemical statements regarding the rejection of the Jewish Sabbath at least opens the door to mitigate the eventual adoption of this phrase as primarily referring to Sunday observance.
It clearly was not a watershed moment, as evidence of Sabbath observance persists even up to the fifth century, but it was definitely in play during the same general time frame attributed to the editorial life of the Didache. For the purposes of the Didache, this leaves me to conclude that “the Lord’s day” may have been part of the evolutionary process of its editors.
If the editors hailed from a place where Roman sentiments were the norm, it could very well be interpreted as a reference to Sunday. If it was compiled by editors who had a more Eastern view of things, it could refer to the Jewish Sabbath or some combination of the two. Regardless, it is evident that the day of Christian worship was becoming a larger and larger issue on the stage of Christian theology. For our purposes today, it remains a valid point to discuss and ponder. When and how do we worship? To whom and by whose authority do we direct our worship? These questions remain vital and alive, despite their connection to the Didache’s ancient origins."
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Once again your claims here in regards to the conclusions stating that the writer accepts the translation of "the Lords day" is not true and does not agree with what is written as posted and no, all scholars do not agree that "the Lords day" is a correct translation that is simply not true..
more to come...