Talbott's Triad

[Hmm]

We are commanded to love our enemies while he plans to incinerate his

Good point. God would be the biggest hypocrite ever if He commands us to love our enemies while He hates His enemies and punishes them forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't think so. There's always a reason, and usually more than one for every choice, we make. Making a choice means choosing between alternative options so how can you do this without having a preference for the one you choose? Having a preference means that you have a good reason, at least in your eyes, for preferring it.

Again, this is all extremely abstract. Can you give me a concrete example from your own life to illustrate what you mean?

Personally, I think all decisions are emotionally driven. We attach reasoning to them in order to justify our knee-jerk emotional reactions to decision-making.

A really good sales person will give a prospect rational reasons to buy in order to help them finalize their emotional decision. The talented sales person knows they will need to justify their decision to themselves and others. Most people won't admit to a purchase on a whim. They usually provide a reason, be it all so weak.

I need that red Ferrari; how else will I get to work?

 

[Hmm]

Personally, I think all decisions are emotionally driven. We attach reasoning to them in order to justify our knee-jerk emotional reactions to decision-making.

A really good sales person will give a prospect rational reasons to buy in order to help them finalize their emotional decision. The talented sales person knows they will need to justify their decision to themselves and others. Most people won't admit to a purchase on a whim. They usually provide a reason, be it all so weak.

I need that red Ferrari; how else will I get to work?

I agree. By reasons I meant emotional reasons as well as intellectual ones.

 

[Saint Steven]

I agree. By reasons I meant emotional reasons as well as intellectual ones.

I used to work in advertising and marketing. The emotional hook was a primary selling device. The rationale was always secondary, but necessary. If you can set the emotional hook, you can usually "land the fish" with the needed reasoning. (features and benefits)

This also explains how I ended up with four Stratocaster guitars. My wife wants to know how many I really need. (one more?) I haven't collected ALL the colors yet.

 

[Dave L]

There's no use repeating myself but unless all this is made real with examples from real life it becomes a discussion about abstract ideas where we'll just be talking past each other because we won't know what the other person is saying or what they mean by words like "free-will".

If you have free will, spend one day without sinning.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you have free will, spend one day without sinning.

Wow. Nice try.
Does that mean that God is causing our sin, since we can't control ourselves?

Why would we be held accountable, or worse, punished for what God is doing? (since it is not us doing it)

And frankly, the choice to sin is just as much of a free-will choice as the choice not to sin. So, how does the challenge of not sinning for a day prove anything? Even if we fail the challenge, it is by free-will choice.

 

[Hmm]

I used to work in advertising and marketing. The emotional hook was a primary selling device. The rationale was always secondary, but necessary. If you can set the emotional hook, you can usually "land the fish" with the needed reasoning. (features and benefits)

This also explains how I ended up with four Stratocaster guitars. My wife wants to know how many I really need. (one more?) I haven't collected ALL the colors yet.

Wow, I bet they're amazing things! Selling is a real art and people who can do it well know an awful lot about psychology!

 

[Hmm]

If you have free will, spend one day without sinning.

We're always going to sin, to fall short of God's standard, just like our bodies are always going to age but neither condition has anything to do with free will. Or if it has, could you explain how?

 

[Dave L]

We're always going to sin, to fall short of God's standard, just like our bodies are always going to age but neither condition has anything to do with free will. Or if it has, could you explain how?

This means your will is bound by sin. Free will is a lie.

 

[Hmm]

This means your will is bound by sin. Free will is a lie.

Do you believe we always sin? How about when we give shelter to the homeless as our Lord commanded us to do - are we sinning then?

Again, this is philosophy. Does Calvanism mean anything on a day to day level to you?

 

[Dave L]

Do you believe we always sin? How about when we give shelter to the homeless as our Lord commanded us to do - are we sinning then?

Again, this is philosophy. Does Calvanism mean anything on a day to day level to you?

It depends on your motive. But all of our works are as filthy rags.

 

[Hmm]

It depends on your motive. But all of our works are as filthy rags.

Okay. I can't really continue in this vein.

 

[Saint Steven]

It depends on your motive. But all of our works are as filthy rags.

Sure; the wood, hay and stubble. But what about the gold, silver and precious stones? God counts those as our works. Are those filthy rags?

 

[Hmm]

Sure; the wood, hay and stubble. But what about the gold, silver and precious stones? God counts those as our works. Are those filthy rags?

I agree. We are all created in the image of God, and one thing God has not given us is the capability to delete His image from ourselves. IOW it is simply impossible to be absolutely depraved as Calvanists would have it where everything we do is "filthy rags".

 

[hedrick]

Do you believe we always sin? How about when we give shelter to the homeless as our Lord commanded us to do - are we sinning then?

Again, this is philosophy. Does Calvanism mean anything on a day to day level to you?

Luther and Calvin certainly realized that people could do things to help others. When they maintained that it was all sin, they meant that there were always enough mixed motives that no action could be pure in a way that would gain credit with God. There is a term "civil righteousness" that refers to things that are helpful to others.

What it was intended to mean is that no one could imagine that anything they do would earn God's forgiveness. That was pure grace. I.e. it was intended to eliminate pride and encourage thankfulness to God.

No, I don't agree with this analysis, but it's based on a more radical disagreement, which I don't have time to describe at the moment.

 

[Dave L]

I agree. We are all created in the image of God, and one thing God has not given us is the capability to delete His image from ourselves. IOW it is simply impossible to be absolutely depraved as Calvanists would have it where everything we do is "filthy rags".

What if the Calvinists are right? Wouldn't this mean you hate God and worship idols instead?

 

[Clare73]

You make God a spectator basing all on the whims of sinners who control him.

Not seeing how I'm doing that in my post.
Please explain.

Free will = the ability to choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

Limited free will = I can choose which ice cream to buy but I can't choose to be sinless.

God operates in the disposition (what one prefers) which governs the will, giving men to prefer his will and ways, and they then willingly and freely choose what they prefer--free will totally free and God totally sovereign.

Free will is not the issue in the NT, the issue in the NT is the disposition.

 

[Dave L]

Not seeing how I'm doing that in my post.

You do this when you make God a spectator who God reacts to people instead of having them react to him.

 

[Clare73]

You do this when you make God a spectator who God reacts to people instead of having them react to him.

See my previous response.
Where do I do that?

 

[Clare73]

I don't think so. There's always a reason, and usually more than one for every choice, we make. Making a choice means choosing between alternative options so how can you do this without having a preference for the one you choose? Having a preference means that you have a good reason, at least in your eyes, for preferring it.

Again, this is all extremely abstract. Can you give me a concrete example from your own life to illustrate what you mean?

Simply preferring it, no reason needed, is enough.
Preferences are located in the disposition.

God works in the disposition giving one to prefer the things of God (e.g., 1 Corinthians 2:14), which they then freely and willingly choose wtihout any external force or constraint, which the ability to do is free will.