Talbott's Triad

[Saint Steven]

"I was pondering whether free will (self-determination) and Universal Redemption are compatible"

It's a very good question. Can God guarantee to save everyone if we have free will and therefore some of us may choose to resist Him forever? I hope that's the question you're asking.

Yes. Thanks for the detailed response.

To summarize my take. We do have free will (self-determination), but not in reference to salvation. It is God's will to save all, and our free will can't stop him.

--- EDIT ---

In re-reading my own post I had a mental image of a misbehaving toddler and their parent. The will of the parent will be achieved in the end. The will (self-determination) of the toddler will only make reaching the desired end more difficult for themselves.

 

[Hmm]

Yes. Thanks for the detailed response.

To summarize my take. We do have free will (self-determination), but not in reference to salvation. It is God's will to save all, and our free will can't stop him.

--- EDIT ---

In re-reading my own post I had a mental image of a misbehaving toddler and their parent. The will of the parent will be achieved in the end. The will (self-determination) of the toddler will only make reaching the desired end more difficult for themselves.

Exactly! Talbott would be thinking "It would have saved me a lot of time if I'd thought of this!"

 

[Cormack]

Can God guarantee to save everyone if we have free will and therefore some of us may choose to resist Him forever?

Despite the fact that people freely resisting God exists in the realm of potential, the believer in universal reconciliation would answer that it’s just not going to be the reality going forward.

Jesus talked about if the miracles done in Bethsaida had been done in Tyre and Sidon, those people would have repented and believed. Same chapter, if the miracles done in those places were done in Sodom(!) Sodom would have still been there in the time of Christ.

That’s potential versus actual, and people holding out on God forever is a very real thing in the potential, Gods got the knowledge of “what if,” what if He allowed the world to go off into a mess like that.

But He’s also got knowledge of the actual, and He tells believers that in the actual He’s going to restore Sodom and every knee will bow to His glory and He’s “in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.” God knows and comforts people of good sense and hopeful heart that He will ensure everyone is saved with their freedom in tact.

 

[Hmm]

Despite the fact that people freely resisting God exists in the realm of potential, the believer in universal reconciliation would answer that it’s just not going to be the reality going forward.

Jesus talked about if the miracles done in Bethsaida had been done in Tyre and Sidon, those people would have repented and believed. Same chapter, if the miracles done in those places were done in Sodom(!) Sodom would have still been there in the time of Christ.

That’s potential versus actual, and people holding out on God forever is a very real thing in the potential, Gods got the knowledge of “what if,” what if He allowed the world to go off into a mess like that.

But He’s also got knowledge of the actual, and He tells believers that in the actual He’s going to restore Sodom and every knee will bow to His glory and He’s “in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.” God knows and comforts people of good sense and hopeful heart that He will ensure everyone is saved with their freedom in tact.

That did make me think what a wonderful God we have, that He can do all these things, combining the seemingly disparate and doing the impossible.

Despite the fact that people freely resisting God exists in the realm of potential, the believer in universal reconciliation would answer that it’s just not going to be the reality going forward

Yes, the idea of freely choosing hell is irrational. If anyone in this life had a habit of putting their head in a fire they would rightly be regarded as not in their right minds, as incapable of making a free and responsible choice, as far as their ultimate well-being was concerned and would hopefully be sectioned for their own well-being (as well as that of others!). Similarly, no person made in the image of a rational God would freely choose to enter eternal hell fire. Any such decision would be made because of illussion and God's love - burning in this instance - would eventually blast it's way through such ignorance until we experience and freely and whole-heartedly embrace God's love as it really is.

 

[Albion]

Yes, the idea of freely choosing hell is irrational. If anyone in this life had a habit of putting their head in a fire they would rightly be regarded as not in their right minds, as incapable of making a free and responsible choice, as far as their ultimate well-being was concerned....

Similarly, no person made in the image of a rational God would freely choose to enter eternal hell fire.

The idea that some people will wind up in hell doesn't rest upon them wanting to go there. It's simply the fate of those who love evil or refuse God, and most of them (as we can see around us in our ordinary, daily lives) simply don't believe that they are in danger.

 

[Hmm]

The idea that some people will wind up in hell doesn't rest upon them wanting to go there. It's simply the fate of those who love evil or refuse God, and most of them (as we can see around us in our ordinary, daily lives) simply don't believe that they are in danger.

I agree. It's not really wanting, it's because of illusion and ignorance as with the prodigal son and that's why I think hell can't be eternal. Would God really send someone to an eternal punishment just because they didn't realise in life where there true happiness lay, i.e. in being restored to God? Wouldn't He work to destroy that illusion with all the love and patience of the prodigal's father? And that isn't just sentimentality - I really believe scripture supports that and lots of verses in this and other recent threads on the subject of Christian Universalism have been given in support of that, so no point in repeating them now.

A big factor is whether death is the really the end or not. Scripture can be cited both ways but I think In the whole it clearly says that God doesn't just suddenly turn from a loving and endless forgiving father into a vindictive torturer at the point of our death if we didn't get it right and that He will eventually reconcile us all and achieve His desire of being "all in all".

 

[Saint Steven]

A big factor is whether death is the really the end or not. Scripture can be cited both ways but I think In the whole it clearly says that God doesn't just suddenly turn from a loving and endless forgiving father into a vindictive torturer at the point of our death if we didn't get it right and that He will eventually reconcile us all and achieve His desire of being "all in all".

Yes, he sustains all of us in this life. Why not in the afterlife? Brings rain (sustaining moisture) on the righteous and the wicked.