Need clarification on LCMS differences between INFANT and ADULT water baptism.

[Questant]

This is a LONG POST, just to let you know beforehand.

My husband and I are investigating the LCMS church.
We feel it fits our Christian perspective the best, but because we are coming from the United Methodist denomination there are a few differences. Not many, but a few.
We have looked to LCMS.org to answer many of our questions on LCMS doctrine.
We have also listened to LCMS pastors online such as Rev. Will Weedon and Rev. Bryan Wolfmueller. These two pastors seem to contradict each other from what we have heard.

Our question is in the matter of "Baptism".
Specifically, the differences between INFANT and ADULT water baptism.
It seems that all of the literature from the LCMS (and sermons) come from the perspective that it assumes everyone is/has been Baptized as an INFANT. Everything is spoken of from that P.O.V.

At the following link: Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
QUOTE:

"Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone."

AND...

"The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God)."

"Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins."

END QUOTES.

We understand and agree with all of the above...BUT...the confusion comes in when we hear LCMS pastors say that a person is "Saved through Baptism". That it is "salvific".
This would be true for INFANT baptism, but not necessarily for ADULT baptism of a person who came to FAITH FIRST than LATER water baptized.

In Infant Baptism, God does several things all-in-one baptism. He gives the infant "faith" and they are no longer under "original sin" and they are "regenerated/new birth/converted" and receive the Holy Spirit - and become a member of the church (Christian church universal). Is this correct?

In ADULTS who have never been water baptized as an infant, they can come to faith (which is all the doing of God's grace, and not the person's efforts) through the hearing or reading of God's Word. When they enter into this faith, they are "born again or new birth/converted/regenerated". We got this information from the LCMS.org site at:
Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.

QUOTE:
"All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6."

OUR QUESTION IS...

When does an ADULT who comes to FAITH FIRST (possibly a long time before getting water baptized) receive the Holy Spirit?
When they BELIEVE or when they are water baptized?
We assume it is when they believe (have faith) are born again, new birth, regenerated, etc.
Is this how the LCMS sees it? We cannot find any information that clearly explains it, because everything seems to speak from the perspective of the INFANT BAPTISM perspective.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Great question(s)! I can give you a longer and more technical answer if you like, but the brief version is that the Holy Spirit is freely given us through the Word and Sacraments. And in Romans 10:17 we read: "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." So, it is God's Word — His promise of forgiveness of sins by the person and works of Jesus Christ — connected to the water, bread, and wine that makes it a Sacrament.

God gives children the gift of Baptism, and they are raised on God's Word. Adults receive God's Word and are also given the gift of Baptism for their comfort. Either way, Baptism is a gift from God to us — it's simply the Gospel in tangible form, that we may receive and know that God has indeed washed away our sins and given us the gift of the Holy Spirit. So, Baptism is not something we do for God, but something God does for us. Baptism can be understood with great simplicity if we, above all, understand it as a holy and unmerited gift that is for all people. It's simply God's Gospel promise connected to water, which we receive by faith.

The grace and peace of Christ to you both! +

 

[Questant]

Thanks for getting back with me, but unfortunately, this does NOT answer my question. It is a stock answer we have found often in LCMS literature.

We know that the LCMS (along with other mainline denominations) are loosing members for a variety of reasons. ONE reason is that it seems they have depended on their members having a lot of children, sending them to LCMS schools and thus maintaining their membership through this method - which DOES NOT WORK ANY MORE.

We found an interesting article on the subject at:
Reversing the LCMS membership decline: not just by having more children

It seems that the LCMS could benefit from having a MUCH CLEARER explanation on the difference between FAITH for salvation of INFANTS vs. ADULTS, and Baptism of INFANTS vs. ADULTS if they want to evangelize and witness to non-Lutherans as a means of growing their membership.

We will go by the information we got at LCMS.org on the subject. It reads....

"The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. "
**[This statement is in regards to ADULTS and their coming to FAITH before being Baptized].

"Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it."
**[As an adult, a new believer should get baptized as soon as they are able. God calls for this to be done for ALL true believers].

"It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins."
**[Again, the above statement is true, but it applies to INFANT baptism].

**The above quote in conjunction with the below quote is helpful for INFANT baptism...

"Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant."

FOR ADULTS THOUGH...

"Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt 28:19- 20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal 3:26-27; Rom 6:1-4; Col 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12:13)."
**[This statement give more clarification on baptism in regards to ADULT faith and baptism].

"Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood."

Thanks again for getting back with me.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thanks for getting back with me, but unfortunately, this does NOT answer my question. It is a stock answer we have found often in LCMS literature.

We know that the LCMS (along with other mainline denominations) are loosing members for a variety of reasons. ONE reason is that it seems they have depended on their members having a lot of children, sending them to LCMS schools and thus maintaining their membership through this method - which DOES NOT WORK ANY MORE.

We found an interesting article on the subject at:
Reversing the LCMS membership decline: not just by having more children

It seems that the LCMS could benefit from having a MUCH CLEARER explanation on the difference between FAITH for salvation of INFANTS vs. ADULTS, and Baptism of INFANTS vs. ADULTS if they want to evangelize and witness to non-Lutherans as a means of growing their membership.

We will go by the information we got at LCMS.org on the subject. It reads....

"The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. "
**[This statement is in regards to ADULTS and their coming to FAITH before being Baptized].

"Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it."
**[As an adult, a new believer should get baptized as soon as they are able. God calls for this to be done for ALL true believers].

"It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins."
**[Again, the above statement is true, but it applies to INFANT baptism].

**The above quote in conjunction with the below quote is helpful for INFANT baptism...

"Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant."

FOR ADULTS THOUGH...

"Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt 28:19- 20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal 3:26-27; Rom 6:1-4; Col 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12:13)."
**[This statement give more clarification on baptism in regards to ADULT faith and baptism].

"Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood."

Thanks again for getting back with me.

God's Law convicts us of our sins, and the Gospel communicates to us forgiveness of sins. The word "Gospel" quite literally means "good news", which is the news that Jesus suffered, died, and was raised for you, that your sins may be forgiven and you may be counted as children of God.

Now, where do we receive this promise? In the Word and Sacraments. So saving faith is communicated to us when we hear the Gospel and when we are baptised. They are not two different things, for Baptism is the Gospel. And as Christians, we need Law and Gospel continuously. The Gospel is not a door that we enter through once and forget about. We live in it. And to be in Christ is to be baptised into Him. It's to live our baptismal life, by the grace of God.

Now, there's a technical term for what you're getting at, which is Ordo Salutis, or the "order of salvation". And while I'm happy to discuss that, I think there's an easier way to arrive at the conclusion, and that is changing our framework from asking: "Is baptism necessary for adults?" to confessing "Baptism is God's gift to us". That is, God has objectively forgiven all of the sins of the world, past, present, and future, once and for all, on the cross. This is an objective reality outside of us. How do we receive it? By faith, namely, trusting in God's promise that it is so. So God has forgiven us once and for all, and He forgives us through the Gospel, through Baptism, through the bread and the wine, through confession and absolution, through praying the Lord's Prayer — all of the above. He forgave us once and for all, and He forgives us daily, and this is not a contradiction, but an overflow of grace.

Now, in Baptism, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. One thing that is good to appreciate is that the Holy Spirit is God, who is always received but never possessed. So, we receive Him through the Word and the Sacraments, and while they are different means, they are the same Gospel. God has given us different means not because He needs it, but for our comfort. So, instead of questioning the purpose of Baptism we, Lutherans, rejoice in it!

To address your comment a bit more directly: Baptism is ordinarily necessary, because it's the means that God has given us. But that does not mean that God is bound by this means, for He also works through the Word spoken. But where the means is accessible, we can take comfort in that it is a gift from God. And where the means is not accessible, we can take comfort in that God is a merciful God. So there is no difference between the faith of adults and children. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that brings about faith, and sustains that faith, through Word and Sacraments.

Blessings! +

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Simply this, for both adults and infants, baptism is a mystery. The promise of regeneration and forgiveness of sins is from God and is His gift to give. It is not about us or what we do, but it is only about what God does for us. Since it is not dependent on us, infant or adult, we need to simply receive the sacrament.

Yes, you can have faith and be saved without baptism or the Eucharist, but God is not limited by the scope of our minds, God is infinite. When He promises grace and forgiveness, why would we question or reject it other than through our rebellious free will; Adam's sin that we inherited.

Have faith, and trust in His promises. We need baptism.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

This is a LONG POST, just to let you know beforehand.

My husband and I are investigating the LCMS church.
We feel it fits our Christian perspective the best, but because we are coming from the United Methodist denomination there are a few differences. Not many, but a few.
We have looked to LCMS.org to answer many of our questions on LCMS doctrine.
We have also listened to LCMS pastors online such as Rev. Will Weedon and Rev. Bryan Wolfmueller. These two pastors seem to contradict each other from what we have heard.

Our question is in the matter of "Baptism".
Specifically, the differences between INFANT and ADULT water baptism.
It seems that all of the literature from the LCMS (and sermons) come from the perspective that it assumes everyone is/has been Baptized as an INFANT. Everything is spoken of from that P.O.V.

At the following link: Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
QUOTE:

"Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone."

AND...

"The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God)."

"Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins."

END QUOTES.

We understand and agree with all of the above...BUT...the confusion comes in when we hear LCMS pastors say that a person is "Saved through Baptism". That it is "salvific".
This would be true for INFANT baptism, but not necessarily for ADULT baptism of a person who came to FAITH FIRST than LATER water baptized.

In Infant Baptism, God does several things all-in-one baptism. He gives the infant "faith" and they are no longer under "original sin" and they are "regenerated/new birth/converted" and receive the Holy Spirit - and become a member of the church (Christian church universal). Is this correct?

In ADULTS who have never been water baptized as an infant, they can come to faith (which is all the doing of God's grace, and not the person's efforts) through the hearing or reading of God's Word. When they enter into this faith, they are "born again or new birth/converted/regenerated". We got this information from the LCMS.org site at:
Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.

QUOTE:
"All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6."

OUR QUESTION IS...

When does an ADULT who comes to FAITH FIRST (possibly a long time before getting water baptized) receive the Holy Spirit?
When they BELIEVE or when they are water baptized?
We assume it is when they believe (have faith) are born again, new birth, regenerated, etc.
Is this how the LCMS sees it? We cannot find any information that clearly explains it, because everything seems to speak from the perspective of the INFANT BAPTISM perspective.

Thanks for your help.

Things like that are mysteries which are not explained. My adult brother was baptized just this year and it was pretty much the same as an infant baptism except that he could answer the questions himself.

LCMS does not re-baptize because there is one baptism for the remission of sins. If you were baptized in the United Methodist Church, you would not require another baptism to join LCMS.

 

[LeGato]

We have a retired Methodist pastor as a member of our congregation.
In our church, you either get baptized as an infant, or as an adult if a convert.