This is a LONG POST, just to let you know beforehand.
My husband and I are investigating the LCMS church.
We feel it fits our Christian perspective the best, but because we are coming from the United Methodist denomination there are a few differences. Not many, but a few.
We have looked to LCMS.org to answer many of our questions on LCMS doctrine.
We have also listened to LCMS pastors online such as Rev. Will Weedon and Rev. Bryan Wolfmueller. These two pastors seem to contradict each other from what we have heard.
Our question is in the matter of "Baptism".
Specifically, the differences between INFANT and ADULT water baptism.
It seems that all of the literature from the LCMS (and sermons) come from the perspective that it assumes everyone is/has been Baptized as an INFANT. Everything is spoken of from that P.O.V.
At the following link: Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
QUOTE:
"Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone."
AND...
"The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God)."
"Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins."
END QUOTES.
We understand and agree with all of the above...BUT...the confusion comes in when we hear LCMS pastors say that a person is "Saved through Baptism". That it is "salvific".
This would be true for INFANT baptism, but not necessarily for ADULT baptism of a person who came to FAITH FIRST than LATER water baptized.
In Infant Baptism, God does several things all-in-one baptism. He gives the infant "faith" and they are no longer under "original sin" and they are "regenerated/new birth/converted" and receive the Holy Spirit - and become a member of the church (Christian church universal). Is this correct?
In ADULTS who have never been water baptized as an infant, they can come to faith (which is all the doing of God's grace, and not the person's efforts) through the hearing or reading of God's Word. When they enter into this faith, they are "born again or new birth/converted/regenerated". We got this information from the LCMS.org site at:
Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.
QUOTE:
"All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6."
OUR QUESTION IS...
When does an ADULT who comes to FAITH FIRST (possibly a long time before getting water baptized) receive the Holy Spirit?
When they BELIEVE or when they are water baptized?
We assume it is when they believe (have faith) are born again, new birth, regenerated, etc.
Is this how the LCMS sees it? We cannot find any information that clearly explains it, because everything seems to speak from the perspective of the INFANT BAPTISM perspective.
Thanks for your help.
My husband and I are investigating the LCMS church.
We feel it fits our Christian perspective the best, but because we are coming from the United Methodist denomination there are a few differences. Not many, but a few.
We have looked to LCMS.org to answer many of our questions on LCMS doctrine.
We have also listened to LCMS pastors online such as Rev. Will Weedon and Rev. Bryan Wolfmueller. These two pastors seem to contradict each other from what we have heard.
Our question is in the matter of "Baptism".
Specifically, the differences between INFANT and ADULT water baptism.
It seems that all of the literature from the LCMS (and sermons) come from the perspective that it assumes everyone is/has been Baptized as an INFANT. Everything is spoken of from that P.O.V.
At the following link: Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
QUOTE:
"Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone."
AND...
"The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God)."
"Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins."
END QUOTES.
We understand and agree with all of the above...BUT...the confusion comes in when we hear LCMS pastors say that a person is "Saved through Baptism". That it is "salvific".
This would be true for INFANT baptism, but not necessarily for ADULT baptism of a person who came to FAITH FIRST than LATER water baptized.
In Infant Baptism, God does several things all-in-one baptism. He gives the infant "faith" and they are no longer under "original sin" and they are "regenerated/new birth/converted" and receive the Holy Spirit - and become a member of the church (Christian church universal). Is this correct?
In ADULTS who have never been water baptized as an infant, they can come to faith (which is all the doing of God's grace, and not the person's efforts) through the hearing or reading of God's Word. When they enter into this faith, they are "born again or new birth/converted/regenerated". We got this information from the LCMS.org site at:
Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.
QUOTE:
"All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6."
OUR QUESTION IS...
When does an ADULT who comes to FAITH FIRST (possibly a long time before getting water baptized) receive the Holy Spirit?
When they BELIEVE or when they are water baptized?
We assume it is when they believe (have faith) are born again, new birth, regenerated, etc.
Is this how the LCMS sees it? We cannot find any information that clearly explains it, because everything seems to speak from the perspective of the INFANT BAPTISM perspective.
Thanks for your help.
