Eternal Security

[Biblewriter]

You quoted the wrong verse. You quoted 1 Timothy 1:12. I asked about 2 Timothy 2:12.

I quoted 1 Timothy 1:12 and 1 John 2:19 because that are GOD"S answer to your attempt to discredit His unconditional promises by quoting 2 Timothy 2:12 and similar scriptures that are about unbelievers posing as Christians.

1 Timothy 1:12 says that the one who keeps us is God, not ourselves.
And 1 John 2:19 says that those who fall away were never real believers.

Together, these two scriptures answer ALL the verses you quote in your vain attempt to prove we can lose something that our God has explicitly said will last FOREVER, and has explicitly said we ALREADY have.

You simply cannot "get around" the HARD FACTS that the words "eternal life" MEAN a life that WILL never end, not a life that MAY never end, and that any life that has been lost was NEVER eternal. These are not just "slogans," but UNDENIABLE HARD FACTS.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I quoted 1 Timothy 1:12 and 1 John 2:19 because that are GOD"S answer to your attempt to discredit His unconditional promises by quoting 2 Timothy 2:12 and similar scriptures that are about unbelievers posing as Christians.

1 Timothy 1:12 says that the one who keeps us is God, not ourselves.
And 1 John 2:19 says that those who fall away were never real believers.

Together, these two scriptures answer ALL the verses you quote in your vain attempt to prove we can lose something that our God has explicitly said will last FOREVER, and has explicitly said we ALREADY have.

You simply cannot "get around" the HARD FACTS that the words "eternal life" MEAN a life that WILL never end, not a life that MAY never end, and that any life that has been lost was NEVER eternal. These are not just "slogans," but UNDENIABLE HARD FACTS.

Ok so here’s what happened. You read 2 Timothy 2:12 and realized that there is no way interpret this verse to support eternal security and that’s why your avoiding it. You say that scripture cannot contradict itself which I agree but you can’t explain how 2 Timothy 2:12 doesn’t contradict your interpretation of scripture so your ignoring it even tho you can clearly see what Paul was saying. You know that if Paul and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them then eternal security is shattered and your interpretation of the scriptures is shattered as well. See the difference between your theology and mine is I have a perfect explanation for every verse you can quote that appears to be pertaining to eternal security because I’ve already reevaluated them. There’s only one truth to God’s word. It is not subjective and when you find that truth all scripture falls perfectly into place.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I quoted 1 Timothy 1:12 and 1 John 2:19 because that are GOD"S answer to your attempt to discredit His unconditional promises by quoting 2 Timothy 2:12 and similar scriptures that are about unbelievers posing as Christians.

How can 2 Timothy 2:12 be about unbelieving Christians when 2 Timothy is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy? Paul is not writing to a church or a congregation he’s writing only to Timothy.

1 Timothy 1:12 says that the one who keeps us is God, not ourselves.
And 1 John 2:19 says that those who fall away were never real believers.

That’s not what 1 Timothy 1:12 says at all. Where do you see the word “keep” in that verse?

“I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And I’ve already explained that 1 John 2:19 refers to a specific group of people. The word “they” does not include everyone who falls away.

 

[Biblewriter]

Ok so here’s what happened. You read 2 Timothy 2:12 and realized that there is no way interpret this verse to support eternal security and that’s why your avoiding it. You say that scripture cannot contradict itself which I agree but you can’t explain how 2 Timothy 2:12 doesn’t contradict your interpretation of scripture so your ignoring it even tho you can clearly see what Paul was saying. You know that if Paul and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them then eternal security is shattered and your interpretation of the scriptures is shattered as well. See the difference between your theology and mine is I have a perfect explanation for every verse you can quote that appears to be pertaining to eternal security because I’ve already reevaluated them. There’s only one truth to God’s word. It is not subjective and when you find that truth all scripture falls perfectly into place.

No, I did not ignore it. I answered it.

 

[Biblewriter]

How can 2 Timothy 2:12 be about unbelieving Christians when 2 Timothy is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy? Paul is not writing to a church or a congregation he’s writing only to Timothy.



That’s not what 1 Timothy 1:12 says at all. Where do you see the word “keep” in that verse?

“I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And I’ve already explained that 1 John 2:19 refers to a specific group of people. The word “they” does not include everyone who falls away.

Paul was indeed writing to Timohy. But this is a general statement. Not a statement about Timothy.

 

[setst777]

They were made perfect by the blood of Christ, they were sanctified by the blood of Christ. Now did Christ shed His Blood for them before or after their faith ?

The New Testament does not teach universal salvation for all people.

Lord Jesus paid the ransom for all people, and whosoever believes (continuous) appropriates that ransom to themselves.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes (continuous believing) in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light (continuous walking), as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes (continuous) him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows (continuous following) me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

 

[Brightfame52]

The New Testament does not teach universal salvation for all people.

Lord Jesus paid the ransom for all people, and whosoever believes (continuous) appropriates that ransom to themselves.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes (continuous believing) in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light (continuous walking), as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes (continuous) him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows (continuous following) me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

You gone off on another subject, nobody said anything about Salvation for all mankind. This is about the eternal security of the believer, once saved, always saved, for thats Gods promise and responsibility.

 

[setst777]

You gone off on another subject, nobody said anything about Salvation for all mankind.

Actually you went off on another subject in the following:

They were made perfect by the blood of Christ, they were sanctified by the blood of Christ. Now did Christ shed His Blood for them before or after their faith ?

Looks to me like you are teaching universal salvation for all.

This is about the eternal security of the believer, once saved, always saved, for thats Gods promise and responsibility.

I believe in the Eternal Security of the believers.
I believe in the loss of Eternal Security for those who do not remain believers.

And I have proven this to be true by Scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually you went off on another subject in the following:



Looks to me like you are teaching universal salvation for all.



I believe in the Eternal Security of the believers.
I believe in the loss of Eternal Security for those who do not remain believers.

And I have proven this to be true by Scripture.

Those who Christ died for are eternally secure, perfected, sanctified before they are believers, when they become believers, and will remain believers, thats Gods responsibility, not mans.

 

[setst777]

Those who Christ died for are eternally secure, perfected, sanctified before they are believers, when they become believers, and will remain believers, thats Gods responsibility, not mans.

Not according to the Scriptures. That is your man-made doctrine.

Show in Scripture where a person is secure, perfected, sanctified before they become believers.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not according to the Scriptures. That is your man-made doctrine.

Show in Scripture where a person is secure, perfected, sanctified before they become believers.

Yes according to scripture.I already have showed you. According to Heb 10:10 how were they sanctified ?

 

[setst777]

Yes according to scripture.I already have showed you. According to Heb 10:10 how were they sanctified ?

The Scripture you provided does not state or teach that a person is secure, perfected, sanctified before they become believers.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Scripture you provided does not state or teach that a person is secure, perfected, sanctified before they become believers.

Yes it does ? How were they sanctified ? How were they perfected according to Heb 10:14

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul was indeed writing to Timohy. But this is a general statement. Not a statement about Timothy.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No there’s nothing general about the statement. What Paul says here is specific to both him and Timothy. If he were making a general statement he would’ve had to have used a general subject like “if someone” or “if anyone”. This would imply that the statement is not about them but about someone else. Paul’s statement here lines up perfectly with what Jesus said to His 11 faithful apostles in John 15:1-7. In verse 4 Jesus tells them to remain in Him. In verse 5 He tells them why they must remain in Him. In verse 6 He tells them the consequences of failing to remain in Him and in verse 7 He tells them what they can expect “if” they remain in Him. Throughout this message the implications are clear that even His 11 faithful apostles were capable of turning away from Christ otherwise the entire message is useless. Consider Luke 13:6-9

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that despite Jesus’ efforts to try and save the tree the outcome is still uncertain. The reason the outcome is uncertain is because Jesus will only save those who cooperate with Him. He does not force anyone to be saved nor does He alter our free will to rebel against Him. During His ministry Jesus called everyone to follow and believe in Him, some did and some didn’t. They did so by their own choice. Jesus does not compel people to believe against their will, if He were to do that then no one would resist and everyone would be saved. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 make it clear that God desires all men to be saved and that none should perish. So if Jesus were compelling people to believe and follow Him against their own free will then it only stands to reason that He would do this to everyone not only to certain people while forsaking all others. He has placed the path before us and shown us the way but we must choose to cooperate with Him in order to receive salvation. Another example is Paul’s message to “the Saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ” in Ephesians 4:17-32 which continues on into Ephesians 5:1-6. Here Paul is warning these who are faithful to Christ about turning back to their former sinful way of life and grieving the Holy Spirit thereby once again becoming “sons of disobedience” and being in danger of receiving the wrath of God. The choice is our’s from beginning to end. We must choose to accept Christ and we must choose everyday to remain in Him until the day we die. Only those who abide in Him and endure to the end will receive eternal life.

 

[setst777]

Yes it does ? How were they sanctified ? How were they perfected according to Heb 10:14

The Letter to the Hebrews is written to Christians, not unbelievers. The pronouns "we" and "us" are used throughout Hebrews when referring to those who are saved. You have to know how to read before you can understand these things.

You have not shown any Scriptures that teach or state the a person is secure, perfected, sanctified before they become believers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes according to scripture.I already have showed you. According to Heb 10:10 how were they sanctified ?

Christ died once for all, meaning His one time sacrifice paid for the sins of all mankind. This doesn’t mean that all mankind will be forgiven of their sins, it means that Jesus will declare who He will forgive and who He will not forgive because He is the one who paid the price.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes it does ? How were they sanctified ? How were they perfected according to Heb 10:14

What do you think “perfected” means in light of what the author of Hebrews said just 12 verses afterwards?

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

We can clearly see that those who continue to go on willfully sinning after receiving the Holy Spirit are in danger of God’s righteous judgement and wrath. We see the exact same example in Ephesians 4:17-32 and on into Ephesians 5:1-6.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, I did not ignore it. I answered it.

No you didn’t address 2 Timothy 2:12 you gave no explanation about it. What you did was quote two other verses and dismissed 2 Timothy 2:12 based on what those verses said.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Letter to the Hebrews is written to Christians, not unbelievers. The pronouns "we" and "us" are used throughout Hebrews when referring to those who are saved. You have to know how to read before you can understand these things.

You have not shown any Scriptures that teach or state the a person is secure, perfected, sanctified before they become believers.

I know who Hebrews was written to. Now according to Heb 10:10,14 how were they sanctified and perfected forever ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ died once for all, meaning His one time sacrifice paid for the sins of all mankind. This doesn’t mean that all mankind will be forgiven of their sins, it means that Jesus will declare who He will forgive and who He will not forgive because He is the one who paid the price.

You confusing the issue:
According to Heb 10:10 how were they sanctified ?