Eternal Security

[Brightfame52]

The believer will follow Christ. John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

 

[Brightfame52]

The perfect tense does not imply that the present state cannot be reversed especially when there’s a condition present. Even Journey made it clear “Don’t Stop Believin”.

Yes it does imply that. When Jesus said it is finished Jn 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The word finished is in the perfect tense ! Can that be reversed ? Can what Christ finshed in the past be reversed ? The perfect tense:

In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

John 19 :: King James Version (KJV)

 

[Biblewriter]

Another drive by reply. Are you ever going to address 2 Timothy 2:12 or will you just keep running from that for the rest of your life? I’ve asked several times already.

If I remember correctly, I did answer that. The answer is:

the scriptures clearly each two principles that SEEM to contradict each other. One if these is that those who believe will NEVER be lost. and the other is that those who fall away will MOST CERTAINLY be lost.

The scriptures that show how BOTH of these can be COMPLETELY true are:

:I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. " 2 Timothy 1:12

The keeping is done by HIM, not by US.

And:

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 1 John 2:19

Those who so fall away were never real believers.

 

[setst777]

Actually,in this case, the perfect tense, "has passed from death into life," coupled with the future tense "shall not come into judgment," means exactly ghat. that the present state cannot be reversed.

For it is an undeniable fact that any life that has been lost was NEVER eternal.

Eternal life does NOT mean a life that has the potential to last forever. It MEANS a live that WILL NEVER END. And the Bible clearly says that whoever believes in Jesus ALREADY HAS eternal life.

Only by faith, and continuing in that faith, is the promise of eternal life made by Lord Jesus and the Apostolic Writers.

Not only is the present tense continuous in Classical Greek, but all the rest of the Scriptures warn, admonish, urge, command, and instruct us to remain faithful to the end to be saved eternally.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[setst777]

The Greek grammars do not even imply that the Greek present tense means action that will continue into the future. They only say that it means action that "IS TAKING PLACE in a continuous manner." They do not even imply that it means "action that WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE PLACE into the future."

The Greek present tense, by itself, is always a continuous action.

If the Greek present tense meant action that will continue to take place into the future, then the Greeks would have had no way to express action that is taking place only at the present time. They would have had no way to say that two men "are fighting." The words they would have to use would mean that these two men would continue to fight forever.

When that present action begins or stops is determined by the grammar used in the sentence structure.

An example of when the present action begins:

When you hire me to work for you, then I will work.

In Greek, "work" is the present tense, and so continues, but the grammar limits the present tense to begin "when" I am hired.

An example of when the present action ends:

I will work for you until 8 pm today.

In Greek, "work" is present so continues, but the limit is set by the sentence grammar - "until 8 pm today."

Now let's look at Scripture...

John 3:14-18 (WEB)
14 As Moses lifted up (a past statement of fact) the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (a past statement of fact that occurs at a time in the future), 15 that whoever believes (present tense that continues without any end) in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes (present tense that continues without any end) in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes (present tense that continues without any end) in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe (present tense that continues - unless the unbelieving person should repent and later believe) has been judged already, because he has not believed (past tense, meaning that the person is judged already for not having believed) in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Not only is the present tense continuous in Classical Greek, but all the rest of the Scriptures warn, admonish, urge, command, and instruct us to remain faithful to the end to be saved eternally.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[setst777]

If I remember correctly, I did answer that. The answer is:

the scriptures clearly each two principles that SEEM to contradict each other. One if these is that those who believe will NEVER be lost. and the other is that those who fall away will MOST CERTAINLY be lost.

The scriptures that show how BOTH of these can be COMPLETELY true are:

These two statement do not in any way seem to contradict each other.

Truly, if you believe (continuous) you will never be lost.

Truly, if you fall away (do not continue to believe) you will most certainly be lost.

The reason these two statements appear to you to contradict each other is because:

• you misunderstand the Greek present tense, which anyone can see who knows anything about the Greek present tense,
• you ignore a major portion of Scripture that warns the Christian to continue in the faith, being watchful all the time, to be eternally saved.

For instance:

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22 (WEB) 22 You will be hated by all men for my name’s sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:32-37 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
32 But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Watch, keep alert, and pray; for you don’t know when the time is.
34 “It is like a man, traveling to another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, and to each one his work, and also commanded the doorkeeper to keep watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you don’t know when the lord of the house is coming, whether at evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning; 36 lest coming suddenly he might find you sleeping. 37 What I tell you, I tell all: Watch.”

Luke 21:19 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
19 By your endurance you will win your lives.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

John 15:8-10 (WEB) Speaking to His disciples
8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) Speaking to His faithful ones
10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB) Speaking to His believers
1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent.
If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Brightfame52]

The believer is eternally secured since they have been by the death of Christ sanctified and perfected forever Heb 10:10,14

 

[Biblewriter]

The claim that the continuous nature of the Greek present tense means, or even implies action that continues into the future, is not only an irrational interpretation of what the Greek handbooks say. It also leads to a flat denial of what the scriptures explicitly say in plain language.

We are explicitly told that the believers in Christ already have eternal life. But the people who claim that it can be lost are denying that we already have eternal life.

For eternal life does not mean, or even imply, a life that has the potential to last forever. It explicitly means a life that WILL last forever.

Any life that has been lost was NEVER eternal.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If I remember correctly, I did answer that. The answer is:

the scriptures clearly each two principles that SEEM to contradict each other. One if these is that those who believe will NEVER be lost. and the other is that those who fall away will MOST CERTAINLY be lost.

The scriptures that show how BOTH of these can be COMPLETELY true are:

:I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. " 2 Timothy 1:12

The keeping is done by HIM, not by US.

And:

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 1 John 2:19

Those who so fall away were never real believers.

You quoted the wrong verse. You quoted 1 Timothy 1:12. I asked about 2 Timothy 2:12.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The claim that the continuous nature of the Greek present tense means, or even implies action that continues into the future, is not only an irrational interpretation of what the Greek handbooks say. It also leads to a flat denial of what the scriptures explicitly say in plain language.

We are explicitly told that the believers in Christ already have eternal life. But the people who claim that it can be lost are denying that we already have eternal life.

For eternal life does not mean, or even imply, a life that has the potential to last forever. It explicitly means a life that WILL last forever.

Any life that has been lost was NEVER eternal.

It’s called a covenant for a reason. If you break the covenant then your voided the agreement.

 

[setst777]

The believer is eternally secured since they have been by the death of Christ sanctified and perfected forever Heb 10:10,14

You are picking parts of Scripture out of context, and making them mean something completely different from what God intended. Anyone can do that, but when we do that to God's own word, then that is sad.

Hebrews 10:10 (WEB)
10 by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Who does God sanctify? God sanctifies WE Christians - those who believe.

Acts 26:17-18 (NIV)
17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.

A Christian is a disciple of Lord Jesus, so if you faith does not lead you to listen to and follow Lord Jesus, then you are not sanctified or saved.

Acts 11:26 (NIV)
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Hebrews 10:14 (WEB)
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

IF you are being made holy now, then the sacrifice of Lord Jesus has made perfect.

However, in the very same letter, and the very same chapter to the Hebrews, we learn that not all Christians continue to be made holy because of deliberate sin. In this case, God will punish them with everlasting fire.

Hebrews 10:24-30 (WEB)
24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Brightfame52]

You are picking parts of Scripture out of context, and making them mean something completely different from what God intended. Anyone can do that, but when we do that to God's own word, then that is sad.

Hebrews 10:10 (WEB)
10 by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Who does God sanctify? God sanctifies WE Christians - those who believe.

Acts 26:17-18 (NIV)
17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.

A Christian is a disciple of Lord Jesus, so if you faith does not lead you to listen to and follow Lord Jesus, then you are not sanctified or saved.

Acts 11:26 (NIV)
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Hebrews 10:14 (WEB)
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

IF you are being made holy now, then the sacrifice of Lord Jesus has made perfect.

However, in the very same letter, and the very same chapter to the Hebrews, we learn that not all Christians continue to be made holy because of deliberate sin. In this case, God will punish them with everlasting fire.

Hebrews 10:24-30 (WEB)
24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You evading the truth, those whom Christ died have once and for all been sanctified and perfected forever Heb 10:10,14, please bow to the word of God

 

[setst777]

You evading the truth, those whom Christ died have once and for all been sanctified and perfected forever Heb 10:10,14, please bow to the word of God

Christ died to perfect once and for all those who are Christians - disciples of Lord Jesus.

Mine is the correct view because it agrees with Hebrews 10:24-30, which you neglected.

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ died to perfect once and for all those who are Christians - disciples of Lord Jesus.

Mine is the correct view because it agrees with Hebrews 10:24-30, which you neglected.

please dont twist scripture to your liking, thats not right. The text tells us how they were sanctified permanently, and perfected permanently, by the offering of Christ which denotes His Death. Heb 10:10,14 Please bow to the scripture !

 

[setst777]

please dont twist scripture to your liking, thats not right. The text tells us how they were sanctified permanently, and perfected permanently, by the offering of Christ which denotes His Death. Heb 10:10,14 Please bow to the scripture !

You are attacking a strawman. You are repeating what I said, then saying I never said what I said.

The promise of being made holy is only for Christians, to whom the Letter to the Hebrews was written to. Only true Believers are perfect in Christ.

By faith, as we walk in the Light of Christ, are we cleansed from all sin.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Once again you neglected Hebrews 10:24-30. WHY did you neglect it?

You neglected that part of the Letter to the Hebrews, because it disagrees with your perversion of God's Word.

 

[Brightfame52]

You are attacking a strawman. You are repeating what I said, then saying I never said what I said.

The promise of being made holy is only for Christians, to whom the Letter to the Hebrews was written to. Only true Believers are perfect in Christ.

By faith, as we walk in the Light of Christ, are we cleansed from all sin.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Once again you neglected Hebrews 10:24-30. WHY did you neglect it?

You neglected that part of the Letter to the Hebrews, because it disagrees with your perversion of God's Word.

Friend you are resisting the truth. Those Christ died for were legally before Gods law and Justice sanctified forever and perfected forever, hence Jesus said with finality, it is finished, and this leagally was finished before anyone of them became believers. Technically they were eternally secured from the second death before they were even born sinners !

 

[setst777]

Friend you are resisting the truth. Those Christ died for were legally before Gods law and Justice sanctified forever and perfected forever, hence Jesus said with finality, it is finished, and this leagally was finished before anyone of them became believers. Technically they were eternally secured from the second death before they were even born sinners !

So you say, but you continue to neglect that these promises are only for true Christians - those who remain in the faith.

Once again, you are ignoring Hebrews 10:24-30 just so you can hold onto your false doctrine. Either you believe all of God's Word or you reject it. You cannot pick and choose only those parts that agree with you and throw out the rest.

In other words, if a Christian does not remain in the faith by deliberate sin, they no longer receive the promise of being perfect in Christ. Not all Christians continue to be made holy because of deliberate sin. In this case, God will punish them with everlasting fire.

Hebrews 10:24-30 (WEB)
24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if WE sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Therefore, the Christian who sins willfully, even though he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant is no longer cleansed from sin, but instead, has only a fearful expectation of judgment – far worse than even the non-believer, because he knew better. Yes, the Lord will repay – even those who are His people, but sin willfully against Him.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you say, but you continue to neglect that these promises are only for true Christians - those who remain in the faith.

Once again, you are ignoring Hebrews 10:24-30 just so you can hold onto your false doctrine. Either you believe all of God's Word or you reject it. You cannot pick and choose only those parts that agree with you and throw out the rest.

In other words, if a Christian does not remain in the faith by deliberate sin, they no longer receive the promise of being perfect in Christ. Not all Christians continue to be made holy because of deliberate sin. In this case, God will punish them with everlasting fire.

Hebrews 10:24-30 (WEB)
24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if WE sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Therefore, the Christian who sins willfully, even though he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant is no longer cleansed from sin, but instead, has only a fearful expectation of judgment – far worse than even the non-believer, because he knew better. Yes, the Lord will repay – even those who are His people, but sin willfully against Him.

Im not neglecting anything you are. According to Heb 10:10,14 how were the believers #1 Sanctified and # 2 Perfected ?

 

[setst777]

Im not neglecting anything you are. According to Heb 10:10,14 how were the believers #1 Sanctified and # 2 Perfected ?

Those who are in the Faith are made perfect forever and are being made holy by the Blood of the Covenant.

Those who do not remain in the faith by deliberate sin are no longer perfect forever in Christ. Those who deliberately sin are no longer being sanctified by the Blood of the Covenant, even though they were sanctified before falling away:

Hebrew 10:29 (WEB)
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them

 

[Brightfame52]

Those who are in the Faith are made perfect forever and are being made holy by the Blood of the Covenant.

Those who do not remain in the faith by deliberate sin are no longer perfect forever in Christ. Those who deliberately sin are no longer being sanctified by the Blood of the Covenant, even though they were sanctified before falling away:

Hebrew 10:29 (WEB)
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them

They were made perfect by the blood of Christ, they were sanctified by the blood of Christ. Now did Christ shed His Blood for them before or after their faith ?