Eternal Security

[Brightfame52]

Ok then stop ignoring 2 Timothy 2:12 and explain how it doesn’t contradict eternal security. You can’t ignore one scripture because it contradicts your interpretation of another one, you have to find a way that both can be true without contradicting each other. So far you haven’t done that, you’ve only ignored 2 Timothy 2:12.

Im not ignoring it, it doesnt say that the Sheep can perish. Jesus said they can never perish.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Im not ignoring it, it doesnt say that the Sheep can perish. Jesus said they can never perish.

Three questions,

Are Paul and Timothy His sheep?

Did Paul just say that if they deny Christ He will deny them?

What happens to those whom Jesus denies?

 

[Brightfame52]

Three questions,

Are Paul and Timothy His sheep?

Did Paul just say that if they deny Christ He will deny them?

What happens to those whom Jesus denies?

Did Peter deny Jesus ? What happened to Peter ? Was he one of Christs Sheep ? Is he going to perish ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Im not ignoring it, it doesnt say that the Sheep can perish. Jesus said they can never perish.

A person who turns away from Christ is no longer one of His sheep.

 

[Brightfame52]

A person who turns away from Christ is no longer one of His sheep.

Then you are saying Christ failed His responsibility.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did Peter deny Jesus ? What happened to Peter ? Was he one of Christs Sheep ? Is he going to perish ?

He repented didn’t he? You are running scared from 2 Timothy 2:12 that’s why you refuse to address it. That’s also why you run away from the questions I asked.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then you are saying Christ failed His responsibility.

No not at all

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then you are saying Christ failed His responsibility.

No not at all

 

[Brightfame52]

No not at all

Yes. You ever heard of the lost Sheep ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then you are saying Christ failed His responsibility.

Christ’s promise was to those who hear and follow, not to those who heard and followed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes. You ever heard of the lost Sheep ?

Yes He will go searching for it. Doesn’t say that he will find it.

““What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:12-14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Very similar to Luke 13:6-9


“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ’s promise was to those who hear and follow, not to those who heard and followed.

Those who heard and followed were His Sheep, and they shall never perish. Everyone else arent His Sheep.

 

[Brightfame52]

bnr

Yes He will go searching for it. Doesn’t say that he will find it.

Lk 15:4-5

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

You have a low opinion of the Shepherd Jesus Christ dont you friend ?

 

[zoidar]

I think this video fits the thread. It's Jordan Cooper a Lutheran theologian. 17 min, if someone is interested.

 

[setst777]

In John 3:16, the Greek word translated "believes" is πιστευων, pisteuon in our alphabet. This a present tense form of the Greek verb πιστευω, pisteuo in our alphabet, word number 4100 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. The present tense does not even imply continuous belief. Such an implication would require the aorist tense, which was NOY used here.

The Aorist tense is a simple past tense, unlike the present tense which shows a present and continuous action.

1. PRESENT TENSE
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the type of action. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.
[Greek Tenses Explained – Ezra Project]

For instance, here is the literal translation of John 3:16...

John 3:16 Young's Literal Translation
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

You have eternal life as you keep believing.

Again, the same form of the same Greek word is translated "believes" in John 5:24.

And in that verse, we are explicitly told that such a person "has passed from death into life." The Greek word translated "has passed" is μεταβεβηκεν, metabebeken in our alphabet, a past perfect form of the Greek verb μεταβαίνω, metabaino in our alphabet, word number 3327 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. The past perfect tense not only states that the action took place in the past, but that it was completed in the past. So this word translates literally as "has already passed," as some modern ranslations render it.

In "John 5:24," "believes" is the present tense, which is continuous. As long as you continue believing, then you have passed from death to life.

Here is the literal Greek translation of John 5:24...

John 5:24 Young's Literal Translation
24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

So, not only is no action on our part required for salvation, the scriptures do not even imply that a continuous belief is required. Once the belief is real, an absolute and irrevocable (see Romans 11:29) change has already taken place.

Your conclusion is based on error.

 

[renniks]

Jesus making a promise isn't a misinterpretation friend. Jesus promised that they shall never perish, take Him at His Word !

A promise isn't the same as forcing you to remain his. If I promise you I will never leave you and you leave me and refuse to acknowledge my existence, I didn't break my promise, you made it impossible to keep.

 

[Brightfame52]

A promise isn't the same as forcing you to remain his. If I promise you I will never leave you and you leave me and refuse to acknowledge my existence, I didn't break my promise, you made it impossible to keep.

That doesnt make sense. Jesus made a promise, thats it, He must be faithful to it !

 

[Brightfame52]

The Aorist tense is a simple past tense, unlike the present tense which shows a present and continuous action.

1. PRESENT TENSE
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the type of action. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.
[Greek Tenses Explained – Ezra Project]

For instance, here is the literal translation of John 3:16...

John 3:16 Young's Literal Translation
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

You have eternal life as you keep believing.



In "John 5:24," "believes" is the present tense, which is continuous. As long as you continue believing, then you have passed from death to life.

Here is the literal Greek translation of John 5:24...

John 5:24 Young's Literal Translation
24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.



Your conclusion is based on error.

You sound correct here, however when you say "As long as you continue believing, then you have passed from death to life." i hope you dont mean that believing is a condition of man, but a evidence of God preserving one in believing. In other words, believing is evidence that one has already been given eternal life.

 

[zoidar]

The Aorist tense is a simple past tense, unlike the present tense which shows a present and continuous action.

1. PRESENT TENSE
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the type of action. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.
[Greek Tenses Explained – Ezra Project]

For instance, here is the literal translation of John 3:16...

John 3:16 Young's Literal Translation
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

You have eternal life as you keep believing.



In "John 5:24," "believes" is the present tense, which is continuous. As long as you continue believing, then you have passed from death to life.

Here is the literal Greek translation of John 5:24...

John 5:24 Young's Literal Translation
24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.



Your conclusion is based on error.

I don't know how much you know Greek. But take a look at this. Not saying you are wrong, but be careful with Greek.

 

[Brightfame52]

I don't know how much you know Greek. But take a look at this. Not saying you are wrong, but be careful with Greek.

Duly noted, however, the aorist is often used to denote the past tense:

Definition of "Aorist"
Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars. The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

John 3 :: King James Version (KJV)