Eternal Security

[michael21]

You quoted John 15:6 but really every verse from John 15:2-7 implies that even Jesus’ faithful 11 apostles had the ability to turn away from Him.

Another one that is really powerful is 2 Timothy 2:12 since this is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy. If OSAS was true then Paul’s statement here would be an impossibility.

The reason I like these two examples the best is because these only refer to people whom we know without a doubt were true believers. No one can say that these could’ve been false professors or tares among the wheat.

Would you agree, a person would have to disown Christ?
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself
2Tim2:11-13

 

[BNR32FAN]

Would you agree, a person would have to disown Christ?
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself
2Tim2:11-13

Yes

 

[Servus]

What amounts to disowning Christ?
Is it strictly when someone decides they no longer believe in Christ and become an agnostic or atheist or join a non-christian religion?

 

[michael21]

What amounts to disowning Christ?
Is it strictly when someone decides they no longer believe in Christ and become an agnostic or atheist or join a non-christian religion?

They could be good examples. Someone wrote once. Sin will not cause you to lose y your salvation, but losing your faith will. That made me think. Sin hardens the heart. Continual wilfull sin brings a hardness that can cause you to lose your faith in Christ, and thus turn away from him/disown him. So I like that interpretation

 

[fhansen]

What amounts to disowning Christ?
Is it strictly when someone decides they no longer believe in Christ and become an agnostic or atheist or join a non-christian religion?

We disown Him in our hearts, generally reflected by the way we live. Sin can, indeed, separate us from Him all over again-or reveal the true state of the heart in any case, a "de-justified"
heart. We "own" Him to the extent that we love Him, and that love, of Himself along with neighbor, excludes sin by its nature at the same time.

 

[Servus]

They could be good examples. Someone wrote once. Sin will not cause you to lose y your salvation, but losing your faith will. That made me think. Sin hardens the heart. Continual wilfull sin brings a hardness that can cause you to lose your faith in Christ, and thus turn away from him/disown him. So I like that interpretation

Do you mean intentionally knowingly turn away from him/disown him?

 

[michael21]

Do you mean intentionally knowingly turn away from him/disown him?

I mean, that if once we become a christian we choose to follow after the sinful nature continuously, in opposition to following after the Holy Spirit, our hearts can become hardened by sin. Then we would naturally in my view find faith in Christ impossible, our hearts would be hardened by sin and we would would turn away from Christ.
In saying the above, it is easy to write of a formula if you like of what could happen, it is also quite possible God could quickly bring you to a place of despair when you continually follow after the flesh and turn you from your folly. Sorry if that isn't the response you wanted, its the best I can do

 

[Servus]

We disown Him in our hearts, generally reflected by the way we live. Sin can, indeed, separate us from Him all over again-or reveal the true state of the heart in any case, a "de-justified"
heart. We "own" Him to the extent that we love Him, and that love, of Himself along with neighbor, excludes sin by its nature at the same time.

What do you mean by the way we live? Lots of people who don't follow Christ lead what would be called decent virtuous lives. The kind of person that could be called a goody two shoes, a do-gooder, straight-laced etc.

 

[Servus]

I mean, that if once we become a christian we choose to follow after the sinful nature continuously, in opposition to following after the Holy Spirit, our hearts can become hardened by sin. Then we would naturally in my view find faith in Christ impossible, our hearts would be hardened by sin and we would would turn away from Christ.
In saying the above, it is easy to write of a formula if you like of what could happen, it is also quite possible God could quickly bring you to a place of despair when you continually follow after the flesh and turn you from your folly. Sorry if that isn't the response you wanted, its the best I can do

That was a good response. I'm just asking these questions to flesh it out more.

 

[Biblewriter]

True, we cannot earn our salvation, and nothing we do can pay for our sins. Lord Jesus made the ransom payment for all people, so that whosoever believes (continuous believing) is ransomed, and possesses eternal life.

Faith, always includes repentance, and is represented in baptism (dying to old Master of sin) and rising to follow our rightful Master and Lord, Jesus).

Whosoever believes (continuous) has eternal life (John 3:16).

Whosoever believes ( continuous) has passed from death to life.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Whosoever believes (demonstrated by following Lord Jesus) walks in the light of life, and is cleansed from all sins.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Therefore, as we remain in the faith (continuous believing), demonstrated by following Lord Jesus, we have the light of life, and the blood of Lord Jesus cleanses us from all sins - we have passed from death to life.

For those who do not remain in the faith, following Lord Jesus, these are no longer walking in the light of life, their sins are no longer forgiven, and they will be judged.

Ephesians 4:5-7 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, 9 for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

Hebrews 12:25 (WEB) See that you (the Christians for whom the letter was written) do not refuse him who speaks. For if they (those OT Israelites) did not escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we (the Christians for whom the letter was written) not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

In John 3:16, the Greek word translated "believes" is πιστευων, pisteuon in our alphabet. This a present tense form of the Greek verb πιστευω, pisteuo in our alphabet, word number 4100 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. The present tense does not even imply continuous belief. Such an implication would require the aorist tense, which was NOY used here.

Again, the same form of the same Greek word is translated "believes" in John 5:24. And in that verse, we are explicitly told that such a person "has passed from death into life." The Greek word translated "has passed" is μεταβεβηκεν, metabebeken in our alphabet, a past perfect form of the Greek verb μεταβαίνω, metabaino in our alphabet, word number 3327 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. The past perfect tense not only states that the action took place in the past, but that it was completed in the past. So this word translates literally as "has already passed," as some modern ranslations render it.

So, not only is no action on our part required for salvation, the scriptures do not even imply that a continuous belief is required. Once the belief is real, an absolute and irrevocable (see Romans 11:29) change has already taken place.

 

[Biblewriter]

Yes, those who hear and follow, not those who heard and followed. Only the ones who abide in Him and endure to the end will never perish. These are His sheep, anyone who does not abide in Him is not His sheep.

The answer to your erroneous claims is found in 1 John 2:18-19, "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

This scripture clearly tells us that those that fall away were never really believers.

 

[Brightfame52]

The believer cannot perish. John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, those who hear and follow, not those who heard and followed. Only the ones who abide in Him and endure to the end will never perish. These are His sheep, anyone who does not abide in Him is not His sheep.

Do you take Christ at His Word, they shall never perish. He is responsible for making that promise good.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, they, the elect, will persevere and be saved. They will remain in Him. That's all we know for sure-that the elect are, um, the elect.

The idea that we can know for ourselves with some kind of perfect certainty is anti-gospel and against the continuous teachings of the ancient churches, both east and west: nonsense IOW.

Im not talking about what i know, or what you know, but what Jesus promised, they shall never perish. I know Jesus said that, can you trust that ?

 

[michael21]

The believer cannot perish. John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

I think you need a bit of leeway here. I would agree that anyone who has made a full commitment to Christ will not be lost. But what of those who make a half hearted commitment? For example, someone goes to church for their parents make them. Their friends at the church are christians so they make a commitment not to be left out. Would God place them in a saved state? I believe so. However, they, because they made a shallow commitment may well fall away due to that shallow commitment. If you say as a hard and fast rule, no one accepted as a christian can lose their salvation you will run into much plain text that opposes that view

 

[Brightfame52]

Your taking the analogy beyond it’s intended application. Obviously each person has the ability to choose to remain in Christ or to turn away from Him according to John 15:1-7 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13.

Listen to David on the responsibility of the Shepherd Ps 23:

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, those who hear and follow, not those who heard and followed. Only the ones who abide in Him and endure to the end will never perish. These are His sheep, anyone who does not abide in Him is not His sheep.

Jesus made the promise, its on Him to keep the promise, not the sheep. The sheep didnt make the promise.

 

[Brightfame52]

I think you need a bit of leeway here. I would agree that anyone who has made a full commitment to Christ will not be lost. But what of those who make a half hearted commitment? For example, someone goes to church for their parents make them. Their friends at the church are christians so they make a commitment not to be left out. Would God place them in a saved state? I believe so. However, they, because they made a shallow commitment may well fall away due to that shallow commitment. If you say as a hard and fast rule, no one accepted as a christian can lose their salvation you will run into much plain text that opposes that view

The believer will not perish, they have everlasting life. They cannot perish because Jesus said they shall not perish.

 

[fhansen]

What do you mean by the way we live? Lots of people who don't follow Christ lead what would be called decent virtuous lives. The kind of person that could be called a goody two shoes, a do-gooder, straight-laced etc.

Well, yes, we can fake righteousness, what else is new? But when we sin, we don't fake anything-that's at least an honest statement about where we really are. And related to that is the fact that love cannot be faked. That is to say, that if one were to really obey the greatest commandments, that would mean that they really do love, and the commandments would be fulfilled-and sin would be excluded, the right way, to the extent that said love is perfected-an admittedly very tall order in this life but nonetheless the proper orientation for a Christian. Refraining from lying, murder, and theft, as examples, do not meant that the heart is right, that our motivation is right, that love reigns in us IOW. Refraining from sin or doing good things for others can all be fake-can be inaccurate reflections of the heart, can be done legalistically, for glory, out of fear, etc.

Either way we can't use any of that to cast doubt on the fact that God can and wants to put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts-to give us the authentic righteousness that we cannot possess on our own, apart from Him. And we can't refer to common human hypocritical behavior as an excuse to keep from doing right ourselves. So John's words apply here:
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

 

[michael21]

The believer will not perish, they have everlasting life. They cannot perish because Jesus said they shall not perish.

you must read the bible as one cohesive whole:
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. Luke8:13&14

Note in the second example of the parable of the sower, it refers to the seed that fell on shallow ground. People receive the word with joy and go on their way, they believe for a while, but when the time of testing comes they fall away. They must have been in a saved state to get to where they fell away.
The people in the third example, kept getting distracted from the path by the worries and pleasures of this world, but Jesus does not say they walked away, only that they did not mature. We have to accept all of Jesus words concerning this, not just the ones we want to cling to