Salvation vs : service.

[Sidon]

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Yes, thats true.

The voice of Jesus is the word of God.
This same word is the seed that is incorruptible and is John 14:6. as explained in 1 John 3:9

The NT is mostly written by the person that teaches the most about The Cross, Salvation, Grace, the blood atonement, the finished work of Christ, redemption, justification, sanctification, etc.
And when you want to know anything about "the preaching of the Cross" or the Gospel, then you go to this same Apostle Paul. And when you want to know about Church Doctrine, you got directly to the same Apostle Paul. And when you want to learn all of this, you find a teacher like me who only teaches "Pauline Theology".

 

[Sidon]

Is this "self saving" you're talking about?

Self saving sounds like this....

"Yes i know that Jesus is the Savior, but......let me show you over here, all that you have to do, now , to stay saved".

Self saving sounds like this....>"You can lose your salvation".

Self saving sounds like this....>"the blood of Jesus does not keep you saved".


Self saving sounds like this......."Yes Jesus is the savior,...but.........but.........but..........but"

 

[Ligurian]

It commonly gets translated as, “you don’t need to keep the commandments”.

When we understand the following points, we better understand the gospel:
*We are not under the law
*We are not free to break the law

We’re still obligated to be righteous, to fulfill the law: the commandments that only reflect righteousness anyway, but fulfill it the right way now, by the Spirit, under grace, not by the Letter, not under the law, by self-effort. To put it another way, when we understand why Paul includes Rom 13:9-10,
“The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed upin this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

then the meaning of Rom 2:13 becomes quite clear:
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

Obedience born of love is the goal of our faith. Adam didn’t want obedience, and couldn’t yet find that capability and desire within himself. Love gives us the reason and the way. We’re here to learn of our need for that love, of our need for God.

To put it better, love is the goal of God for us-and a work of His in us. Obedience is just a natural side-effect. Disobedience of any of His commandments, beginning with the first one in Eden, only shows that we don't yet love-or love fully, perfectly. And we don't love Him because we don't know Him and we don't know Him because we fail to even believe in Him to begin with. Adam disbelieved God, not recognizing His godhood. The first step in coming to love God is to believe in Him again, and Jesus gives us all we need to begin to do just that.

Well, that's not true of Adam, is it?... or maybe it is. The serpent deceived the woman who had apparently been taught what God said by the man... which one of them added to what God said, Adam or Eve? If you find out that you can touch/consider something and not die, will you be persuaded that eating/believing that same thing won't kill you either?

Eve found that the law was beautiful and swallowed it down. Her husband... who knows why he did it... nobody tells us that... but he was there with her and also ate the law. It had to have been the Law itself or Abel wouldn't have known what was good for sacrifice. But Cain was the very first scofflaw, wasn't he? And we're not told how Noah knew which were clean and unclean animals... which is also found in the Law. People who say "Noachide laws" must've forgotten these things... or they don't like food laws.

Obedience. I believe that Matthew 5 is right that there are people who naturally hunger and thirst for righteousness... aka law and order... find the Creator as a matter of course. And they see what the Father has made, and all of the order therein... and they love His order, so they love Him. And they want to live where His order rules and reigns. Because they see the results of chaos all around them, every day getting stronger. And these people become martyrs in a world that loves chaos.

 

[Sidon]

I'm surprised you think Paul actually used the words "born again"... are you too busy to look anything up?

I dont need to look it up.

See, I quote it about 5 times a day, since im on this Forum.
I have at least one Thread here that actually explains what it means.


Here it is again..

Jesus said...."you MUST be born again".

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are not understanding something..

See, after you are born again, there is no "rejecting Christ".
The only time you can reject Christ, is if you have never first believed.
In other words, you have to be an unbeliever..

Once a person is born again, then this is proof that they have NOT rejected Jesus.

See, you cant stop being born again.

So a person can be in Christ but not really in Christ? Is that what your saying? Like in John 15:2 or John 15:6 for example. And the people that Jesus said would fall away didn’t really fall away because you can’t fall away from something you were never connect to? Is that what your saying?

 

[Sidon]

Where does "Paul teach" "born again", Sidon?
Book, Chapter and Verse, please.
Peter wasn't under Paul's authority or gospel, according to Galatians 2:7-9.
Because of John, we know that Peter really kept what Jesus taught him because Peter's a martyr.

"""""""Where does "Paul teach" "born again", Sidon?
Book, Chapter and Verse, please.""""""

"All who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"To him that worked not but believeth on God who justifieth the UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted for Righteosness".

See those 2 verses? They are defining what you are to do to be born again.
If you do that, God will give you the New birth.
This is Jesus explaining "you must be born again".



""""""""""""""Peter wasn't under Paul's authority or gospel, according to Galatians 2:7-9."""""""""

I dont think that Peter was under Paul's authority, or vice versa.
Both were sent out as Apostles, with Jesus personally choosing Paul for the "time of the Gentiles".
It is true however, that by Acts 15, all the Apostles had understood Paul's Gospel, as THE Gospel.
If you read 2nd Peter, you'll discover that Peter stated that Paul's letters, that he had in his hand, are equal to the Jewish TORAH.
That is Peter, saying that Paul's letters, at that time, are equal to the Word OF GOD.
And this is proven to be true, as Paul's letters make up most of the New Testament.
Peter got that right.
Maybe you will also, one day, Ligurian.



Because of John, we know that Peter really kept what Jesus taught him because Peter's a martyr.

All the Apostles were martyr'd, , except for John.
You should read Foxe's Book of Martyr's.
And you should read....."The Screwtape Letters"

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now, that is true.
See, we are not saved or kept saved by "repenting".
If that was the case, then "repenting" would be the savior

Let me stop you right there, repenting would not be the Savior without Christ’s atonement. Repentance does not pay the penalty for sin. So no your statement is incorrect. If Christ requires us to repent then Christ is still our Savior not the requirement He instituted.

 

[Ligurian]

Paul is the "apostle to the gentiles" in the "time of the Gentiles".
This isnt going to change to suit your unbelief or personal theology.

The Gospel in the "time of the Gentiles' is "the preaching of the Cross".
This is not going to change simply because you can't stand the reality that the apostle to the gentiles wrote all the doctrine for the NT Church and most of the NT as well.

[green added]
Galatians 2:7-9 Matthew 28:18-30

Matthew 7:28-9 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at His doctrine: For He taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.

____________
Dear Readers:
I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven... which has a different
meaning for unbelief than what seems to be currently tossed at my head.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

follow this one. Its Paul's. He calls it "My Gospel".
Research that.

Matthew 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, [by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Sidon]

I can't get my head around most of Paul's sayings. In many cases, he seems to contradict himself. He acts like he's a slave to sin, but calls the law bondage.

Well, i do understand what you are thinking.

Paul did say that if you are trying to be righteousness, by law and commandment keeping, = you are a slave to both, and that doing this is "dung",..... and what is worse, is that the slavery,= : "the power of sin is the law".
This is the "curse of the Law".

The curse of the Law is that when you try to keep Law and Commandments to be righteous, you find that you are under a curse.
The curse is that, the law is the power of sin.

So, can you imagine the confusion of living in a place in your spirituality, of broken faith, when what is holy and true, if you try to do it to be RIGHTEOUS, it causes you to sin more.
"the LAW is THE POWER OF SIN".

Yes, i know that is logically "backwards", and......that is because these are spiritual principles, and when we try to comprehend them with our logic and analytical mind, we can't see them.
The natural mind or "the FLESH">... """""is blind to the things of God as the things of God, and cannot know them as they are Spiritually Discerned.""""

The Law and commandments are holy.
But, they can't produce holiness.
All they can do, is spotlight your unrighteousness.
See that "curse"?
Jesus died to free you from that "curse......of the law"

So, the more you try to keep them to try to be RIGHTEOUS by doing that, then the more the Law and The commandments become a curse to you, ...because all they do is spotlight your unrighteousness.
See that "curse".

"Christ came to redeem us from the Curse of the Law".

How?

He did it by keeping them all, and then dies sinless.
God then takes this actual holy life He lived, this "righteousness of Christ", and Spiritually gives it to you, as "the gift of salvation", and "the gift of Righteousness"..... and takes all your sin and this becomes Christ's judgement for your sin, in your place.

Welcome to SALVATiON.
------------------------------------------------

There is a verse that says....>"you are crucified with Christ".
See that?
That is your "old man of sin'".
Paul says that he is gone.....to "reckon the old man DEAD"., and He is, as he is "crucified with Christ".
Christ took care of this when Jesus "became SIN"... and died, as judgement for it. And when you are born again, Christ the righteousness, JOINS your spirit, and you become "the righteousness of God, in Christ"....."Justified by faith"......possessing "Eternal Life".

How to see all this? Its like this.
Who is Salvation.
Who is Righteousness?

Its JESUS and when we have HIM IN US, then we have what He IS, as us becoming a "new creation, IN Christ".

And a person says....."that is a lot to understand".
And a teacher says..... you are to BELIEVE IT, and in the believing God will show the revelation.

See, all things with God are Trust, Faith, Spirit, Love, Righteousness, and they all are GIFTS.

The Bible says at as high as Heaven is from earth is how far God's WAYS are above our ability to comprehend them.
God said that Its by the "foolishness of Preaching", that He saves ...

And why is this called "foolishness"?.....Its because that is what FAITH sounds like when you try to understand it with the natural or carnal mind.

God's Spiritually is so foreign to us, that it seems odd., foolish.

Think about this.....
When you want God to use you, what are you to do?
You are to be more humble, and be found on your KNEES, in humility, most of all.

What does the world say?
The world says..>"be loud, be proud, be the biggest, the smartest, the richest....

See that?
God's Spirituality is the opposite of how we think it should be......and that is why believers have to develop a renewed mind, a NEW UNDERSTANDING, regarding God's Spirituality, and how this has nothing to do with how we would think it should be.

A believer who is not understanding Salvation, is trying to perform the commandments and burn themselves out with striving against sin, and putting in all the self effort.
All this does is FAIL..... While God sits there and says....>"""""ive already down all the heavy lifting for you, on the CROSS".
Now come and exit in this GRACE, and i will be your Power, and you will be my vessel.
God says....Find your REST in my GRACE and let me do the work through you. """"

 

[Ligurian]

You are not understanding something..

See, after you are born again, there is no "rejecting Christ".
The only time you can reject Christ, is if you have never first believed.
In other words, you have to be an unbeliever..

Once a person is born again, then this is proof that they have NOT rejected Jesus.

See, you cant stop being born again.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.

arneomai = to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate:--deny, refuse.

Now, that is true.
See, we are not saved or kept saved by "repenting".
If that was the case, then "repenting" would be the savior.
We do see that repenting is your savior, as you have trusted in repenting to keep from losing your salvation.
When you actually trust in Christ to keep you saved, the you have finally understood the Cross.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 14:24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

A "CHRISTian" is someone who has become "ONE with God" In Christ by being born again, spiritually.

A disciple, can be an unbeliever, or a religious but lost person, who is trying to "follow Christ" yet they are not born again.
This is the person that will be told...."Depart, i never KNEW You".

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work anomia. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

anomia from anomos = a (as a negative particle) and nomos (law); lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

Galatians 2:7-9

 

[Sidon]

Well, that's not true of Adam, is it?... or maybe it is. The serpent deceived the woman who had apparently been taught what God said by the man... which one of them added to what God said, Adam or Eve? If you find out that you can touch/consider something and not die, will you be persuaded that eating/believing that same thing won't kill you either?

Eve found that the law was beautiful and swallowed it down. Her husband... who knows why he did it... nobody tells us that... but he was there with her and also ate the law. It had to have been the Law itself or Abel wouldn't have known what was good for sacrifice. But Cain was the very first scofflaw, wasn't he? And we're not told how Noah knew which were clean and unclean animals... which is also found in the Law. People who say "Noachide laws" must've forgotten these things... or they don't like food laws.

Consider that Adam, and Eve, and Noah, existed before God gave the Law and Commandments by Moses.

So, all the animals the went on the Ark, had not been defined yet as "unclean", as there was no law yet given..

It interesting...that all of these were in this situation......"where there is no law, there is no transgression".

This is very interesting, because "iniquity" is sin, its the sin of rebellion. (disobedience), we learn later in the word.
So, REBELLION, does not have a title, until Moses shows up.

See, what the law and commandments do, is give a TITLE to specific deeds of Rebellion, as all sin is rebellion against holiness.

So, Lucifer was rebelling, which is "iniquity", and Adam and Eve rebelled as disobedience, yet, because Moses had not been born yet to eventually give the LAW TITLE to all the types of "iniquity", then what Lucifer and Adam and Eve did, can't be classified with a TITLE, as that came by the Law and Commandments.

So, you could commit rebellion in Heaven and in the Garden of Eden, , yet, the law was not given yet by Moses, that gave your/their specific sin a title.
A part of the "curse of the law" is that it gives your sinning a TITLE.
For every sin, Moses's law gives it a Title.
So, what those 3 did was before the law of Moses, yet the iniquity that is rebellion, is still sin/iniquity.....Yet without a title.

 

[Sidon]

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 14:24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work anomia.

""""""""Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.""""""""""

Peter denied Jesus 3x before quite a few men, women, children, and farm animals.
Where is he now?
He's with Paul, and Jesus, and with all the "BORN AGAIN".


""""""John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 14:24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.""""""""


Yes, you can love God's words, you can memorize them, you can write your own bible translation, based on your obsession.
Then, you can die and go to hell like a bullet, and then later the lake of Fire.
Why?

Because you were never born again.

See, there is only one WORD you keep, that gains heaven for you.
And that word is "BELIEVE".

All that believe in Jesus, shall be saved". Not all who keep his words or eat his words.

"faith is counted". "Grace Through Faith".

Faith is.. "all that BELIEVE shall be saved and all who believe not shall be DAMNED".

John 3:36


"""""""Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work. """"


Yes.
This is the saddest situation of all.
This is Jesus telling the person who kept commandments and studied the bible, and cast out devils in Jesus's name, = to DEPART.

And why?
It because Jesus said.....>"you MUST be born again", and they wern't.
They are the saddest case of all.
This world is full of these people.
All water baptized, all hitting the pews on Sunday, and yet, they are not born again.

The are...

"Religious but Lost".

Let me explain. Jesus said...>"depart from me, i never KNEW you".

See that? "Knew you'?

That is very specific.
See, for Jesus to know you, you have to be born again, as then He comes to live in you.
That is how he "knows you"..... or not.

 

[Sidon]

And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Try to recognize the "gospel" as "Christ on the Cross", being "preached".

Notice that there isnt any "commandments", or "law", or "enduring", or "self effort".
Its only Christ on the Cross, as John 3:16.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now, that is true.
See, we are not saved or kept saved by "repenting".
If that was the case, then "repenting" would be the savior.

Heres another example, you say that we must believe in Christ to be saved so according to your logic above believing is our Savior not Christ.

We do see that repenting is your savior, as you have trusted in repenting to keep from losing your salvation.

We do see that believing is your savior as you have trusted in believing to keep you from losing your salvation.

When you actually trust in Christ to keep you saved, the you have finally understood the Cross.

Nope now trust is your savior as you have trusted in trusting to keep you from losing your salvation.

“See that” see how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[Sidon]

So a person can be in Christ but not really in Christ? Is that what your saying?

All the born again are "in Christ"
But most of the born again are "fallen from Grace".

Did you read my Thread......."Broken Faith"?

Check it out.
Its explains the issue most believers have with their Faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Try to recognize the "gospel" as "Christ on the Cross", being "preached".

Notice that there isnt any "commandments", or "law", or "enduring", or "self effort".
Its only Christ on the Cross, as John 3:16.

Actually the gospel is the perfect example of the commandments since Jesus kept all of them.

 

[Sidon]

Let me stop you right there, repenting would not be the Savior without Christ’s atonement. Repentance does not pay the penalty for sin. So no your statement is incorrect. If Christ requires us to repent then Christ is still our Savior not the requirement He instituted.

There is only one "repenting" that is involved in "faith is counted as righteousness"... "Justification by faith".
Its to repent of unbelief, to FAITH in Christ.
That is the "real repentance".

The other stuff....>"the guilt, the tears, the condemnation, the sin confessing, and then you do it again a week later".
That is not real repentance.
That is a person playing a mind game with themselves, so that they can feel better, vs, feeling really guilty about what they did, again.
The majority of believers play this game as their "christianity" ,all their life.
I teach you how to STOP.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All the born again are "in Christ"
But most of the born again are "fallen from Grace".

Did you read my Thread......."Broken Faith"?

Check it out.
Its explains the issue most believers have with their Faith.

Now your contradicting yourself and your not making any sense all at the same time. Now all the born again are in Christ but most of them have fallen from grace? People who have fallen from grace are in Christ? No, people who have fallen from grace have been severed from Christ. Better check Galatians 5:4 again.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Sidon]

Heres another example, you say that we must believe in Christ to be saved so according to your logic above believing is our Savior not Christ.
?

God's logic is never clear when you want to save yourself.

This is why, "all who believe shall be saved"......is not what you want to hear.

Now notice this..

A person who has believed......
They did this only once.
They TRULY BELIEVED in Christ. ONCE......and God sees this FAITH in their Heart, and He gives them the New Birth, and they are SAVED.
See that believing? It happens ONCE.......and its proven that a person did believe, ONCE, because they are BORN AGAIN, once by God's Spirit.

All that happens only once.

If you are born only once, you end up in hell.
If you are born twice, you end up in heaven.

 

[Sidon]

Now your contradicting yourself and your not making any sense all at the same time. Now all the born again are in Christ but most of them have fallen from grace? ‬‬

You missed the part where i said that faith is broken, but salvation is not lost.

You can't lose salvation, as this is based on God giving a person a NEW BIRTH.
This can't be changed.

What a person can change is their FAITH.
They can start to have a faith that isn't right and once that happens, then their faith is broken, not their salvation.
A broken faith, is to "fall from Grace', to be "bewitched", and to be "in the Flesh", as Paul teaches .

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is only one "repenting" that is involved in "faith is counted as righteousness"... "Justification by faith".
Its to repent of unbelief, to FAITH in Christ.
That is the "real repentance".

The other stuff....>"the guilt, the tears, the condemnation, the sin confessing, and then you do it again a week later".
That is not real repentance.
That is a person playing a mind game with themselves, so that they can feel better, vs, feeling really guilty about what they did, again.
The majority of believers play this game as their "christianity" ,all their life.
I teach you how to STOP.

Thats a very elementary understanding of the biblical meaning of repentance. I see this all the time, sometimes it just takes a few years before people begin to see the bigger picture and acquire a more comprehensive understanding of God’s word.