20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[sovereigngrace]

Your claim was the Atonement was limited to Israel and only after the first century went to other nations. That is dispensational thought.

If you are being honest: quote me when I said that.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I am not avoiding your opinion. I am pointing them out as your opinions.

Not so! I have stated facts and you have been unable to even rebut one point. That is because they are true and biblical.

 

[Guojing]

Do you still believe that if they die and go to hell while they're waiting, that's better than receiving Christ and going to heaven?

I never said that is better. Being in the body of Christ is far better even though Israel was promised healing and wealth if they obeyed.

Spiritual blessings trump physical ones.

 

[Guojing]

Paul was an Israelite of Israel who was in Christ and in the Body of Christ.

Which flock do you think he was in?

He is the first member of the Body of Christ (1 Timothy 1:16)

So no, when he talk about Israel, he stated that their salvation will also come in the future (Romans 11:27), notice the phrase "with them", so he is excluding himself from the nation Israel, although he is a physical Jew.

 

[Guojing]

I can't fathom how there can be a difference between being in Christ and being in the body of Christ. That makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Please answer the following 2 questions.

What are the requirements for someone to be in Christ?

What are the requirements for someone to be in the body of Christ?

If you are keen to learn, you can view this to understand the difference.

Of course, you are also free to reject this teaching.

 

[Guojing]

Luke's version of "the little flock."

Luke 12:22a, 32-34 - And he said to his disciples,... "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Jhn 10:16 - And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Act 20:28 - Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

1Pe 5:2 - Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly,​

Why did you avoid Luke 12:22a and the other verses that clearly show that Jesus is referring to "other sheep/Gentiles" the flock of God, "church of God," and that Jesus is ultimately referring to the "kingdom of heaven" and that they are to be the first in charge of building his church. In other verses in scripture Jesus, on the night he is to be betrayed, is telling Peter "to feed my sheep." He is giving Peter the keys to his kingdom in his absence. But in no way is "the little flock" ever to mean "a separate group of believers" as your dispensational doctrine says. That is dispensational heresy at its worst! Jesus in NOT referring to any future literal earthly temple that is supposedly going to be built in Jerusalem as "his kingdom on earth."

Lastly, Isaiah in the OT prophesied this...

"Isa 56:8 - Thus says the Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered." ​

Even Isaiah believed that the future Messiah would gather others (Gentiles) to Himself. Here is your "one body" as foretold.

As I already stated to jgr, none of us now follow what Jesus commanded immediately after that verse Luke 12:32, to sell all we have to give to the poor.

So if we are not obeying Jesus's commands to the "little flock", to claim that we are also under the little flock, would be a sin.

Why put yourself in Luke 12:32 when you are disobeying Jesus commandment after that?

 

[Timtofly]

If you are being honest: quote me when I said that.

I did quote your quote.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so! I have stated facts and you have been unable to even rebut one point. That is because they are true and biblical.

Did you notate the sources of these "facts" in each point you gave?

 

[Guojing]

Similarly, just because it says in Galatians 6:16 "and upon the Israel of God" it doesn't mean the Israel of God is a different group than those who "walk according to this rule" of being a new creature in Christ. Why would you conclude that being a natural descendant of the nation of Israel is a requirement for being part of "the Israel of God" after Paul had just previously said "neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision"? That would make no sense. He would have contradicted himself.

So, what Paul was saying is that those who walk according to the rule of being a new creature in Christ are those who make up "the Israel of God". One's nationality has nothing to do with whether someone is in the Israel of God or not. Which is the same thing Paul taught in Romans 9:6-8 as well.

Read Acts 21:18-25 to understand that Paul was not contradicting himself.

The Body of Christ is a separate group from the little flock. The latter needed to obey the Law of Moses, which includes physical circumcision, even after they believe (James 2:24-26), but gentile believers are exempted by James in Acts 21:25.

Of course, if you also share the same view as SG, about James being mistaken in that Acts 21 passage, then your belief about having no distinction will naturally follow from that view.

 

[sovereigngrace]

When Jesus was stating John 17, there was no Body of Christ. The only way to be saved then was thru Israel (John 4:22).

The Body of Christ was a mystery that the ascended Christ first revealed to Paul (Galatians 1:12, Ephesians 3:9), after the nation of Israel fell (Romans 11:11)

It is plain you have nothing. Your arguments do not add up. You do not quote the actual scriptural text (which is a Dispy trait) because it does not say what you are claiming. You constantly duck around every single post and every single passage that exposes your beliefs. There is no proper exegesis of the sacred text.

The New Testament revelation of God’s truth and the spiritual significance of Christ’s character and mission were more detailed and greater than that in the Old Testament. But even before the cross, during the old covenant period, Christ exhorted Israelites to embrace Him and be "in Him." Here we see the spiritual union that comes through the new birth.

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 6:56: “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.”

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 14:20: “I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 15:1-7: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 16:33: “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Jesus prayed for ethnic Israelites in His day in John 17:21-23: “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.”

 

[Guojing]

It is plain you have nothing. Your arguments do not add up. You do not quote the actual scriptural text (which is a Dispy trait) because it does not say what you are claiming. You constantly duck around every single post and every single passage that exposes your beliefs. There is no proper exegesis of the sacred text.

The New Testament revelation of God’s truth and the spiritual significance of Christ’s character and mission were more detailed and greater than that in the Old Testament. But even before the cross, during the old covenant period, Christ exhorted Israelites to embrace Him and be "in Him." Here we see the spiritual union that comes through the new birth.

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 6:56: “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.”

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 14:20: “I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 15:1-7: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”

Jesus said to ethnic Israelites in His day in John 16:33: “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Jesus prayed for ethnic Israelites in His day in John 17:21-23: “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.”

If you want to be more constructive in your criticism of my post, quote the verses I used and tell me how you would interpret them instead.

No point using other verses that say something else, and then claim that my verses "does not say what you are claiming".

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Body of Christ is a separate group from the little flock. The latter needed to obey the Law of Moses, which includes physical circumcision, even after they believe (James 2:24-26), but gentile believers are exempted by James in Acts 21:25.

Do you imagine that if you keep repeating this error it will suddenly become truth? That is not the way it works. You are presenting a false gospel here. Salvation never came through circumcision or by obeying the Law of Moses. You say natural circumcision avails something, Scripture says it means nothing. It is time to let the Bible speak for itself!

Obeying the Law of Moses?

James 2:10: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments (the law of God) in Exodus 20:1–17, as a revelation of His holy expectation. It was a list of ‘dos and don’ts’ and is commonly known as the moral law. This moral law was a revelation of God’s holy mind in regard to righteousness and holy standards.

Rom 7:13: "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

But saying all this, Paul says in Romans 3:20, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”

This is repeated throughout Scripture!

Galatians 3:10-11 says, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse … But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.”

Galatians 2:16 declares, “a man is not justified by the works of the law.”

1 Timothy 1:8-10: “the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane.”

Outside of Christ we know nothing, and outside of the Spirit of God we are unable to comprehend spiritual things or achieve them. That is why we have to trust the illumination of the Spirit and the truth of the Word of God.

Through physical circumcision?

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

 

[sovereigngrace]

If you want to be more constructive in your criticism of my post, quote the verses I used and tell me how you would interpret them instead.

No point using other verses that say something else, and then claim that my verses "does not say what you are claiming".

Stop ducking around the inspired text. Your avoidance is plain for all the see.

 

[jgr]

I never said that is better. Being in the body of Christ is far better even though Israel was promised healing and wealth if they obeyed.

Spiritual blessings trump physical ones.

You did say that is better.

However, you are to be commended for changing your mind.

 

[Guojing]

You did say that is better.

However, you are to be commended for changing your mind.

You have unusual reading comprehension skills in that post of mine you are referencing

 

[Guojing]

Do you imagine that if you keep repeating this error it will suddenly become truth? That is not the way it works. You are presenting a false gospel here. Salvation never came through circumcision or by obeying the Law of Moses. You say natural circumcision avails something, Scripture says it means nothing. It is time to let the Bible speak for itself!

Obeying the Law of Moses?

James 2:10: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments (the law of God) in Exodus 20:1–17, as a revelation of His holy expectation. It was a list of ‘dos and don’ts’ and is commonly known as the moral law. This moral law was a revelation of God’s holy mind in regard to righteousness and holy standards.

Rom 7:13: "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

But saying all this, Paul says in Romans 3:20, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”

This is repeated throughout Scripture!

Galatians 3:10-11 says, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse … But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.”

Galatians 2:16 declares, “a man is not justified by the works of the law.”

1 Timothy 1:8-10: “the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane.”

Outside of Christ we know nothing, and outside of the Spirit of God we are unable to comprehend spiritual things or achieve them. That is why we have to trust the illumination of the Spirit and the truth of the Word of God.

Through physical circumcision?

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

James 2 explains what James meant in acts 21.

But since you claim James was mistaken in acts 21, that won’t matter to your doctrine.

 

[jgr]

He is the first member of the Body of Christ (1 Timothy 1:16)

The Body of Christ is the NT Church.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

The first members of the NT Church were added at Pentecost.

Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Paul's conversion occurred several years after Pentecost.

He was not the first member of the Body of Christ.

1 Timothy 1:16 Greek

4413 [e]
prōtō
πρώτῳ ,
[the] foremost
Adj-DMS

The word translated "first" in the KJV is most accurately translated "foremost" or "chief". Paul described himself as the foremost or chief of sinners. The same Greek word is used in 1 Timothy 1:15 .

The NASB renders them accurately.

1 Timothy 1
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.
16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

 

[jgr]

You have unusual reading comprehension skills in that post of mine you are referencing

If that's a compliment, thanks.

 

[Guojing]

The Body of Christ is the NT Church.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

The first members of the NT Church were added at Pentecost.

Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Paul's conversion occurred several years after Pentecost.

He was not the first member of the Body of Christ.

1 Timothy 1:16 Greek

4413 [e]
prōtō
πρώτῳ ,
[the] foremost
Adj-DMS

The word translated "first" in the KJV is most accurately translated "foremost" or "chief". Paul described himself as the foremost or chief of sinners. The same Greek word is used in 1 Timothy 1:15 .

The NASB renders them accurately.

1 Timothy 1
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.
16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

The term body of Christ is not equivalent to the term church.

A church is a called out assembly.

 

[jgr]

The term body of Christ is not equivalent to the term church.

A church is a called out assembly.

You'll have to argue with Paul and the Holy Spirit who inspired him.