Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[zoidar]

I think what you’ll find if you look long enough is that some of the answers used to reconcile apparent discrepancies within the Bible are very laboured, whether those answers be to supposed Gospel contradictions, mathematical errors, geographic errors, dating errors, charges of grammatical inaccuracies.

We have answers for every single textual issue without exception, but unless you have a Christian with the strongest inbuilt desire to defend the inerrancy of scripture reading those sometimes belaboured defences, there’s going to arise a sense of sympathy with the people who are stumbled by and begin having doubts about inerrancy.

In this I agree with you. I won't say those "contradictions" if we call them that (I rather say differences) don't exist. But like I tried to say is if we take the Bible to be like a textbook, we may have been mislead. It's purpose is not to be a sciencebook, its purpose is to give the readers a message. This message I have found to be without error or contradictions.

 

[Cormack]

its purpose is to give the readers a message. This message I have found to be without error or contradictions.

The stated purpose of the Gospel of John goes hand in hand with your thoughts there.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
​

Other believers might want to use verses like “every eye will see Him” to try and say the Bible predicted television, but by the time Christ returns we’ll all be consuming content from smart phones. Point being it’s just too laboured, many Christians want to lumber the Bible with more than it’s trying to deliver.

Inerrancy is an all or nothing game and I’ve yet to find an error that’s shaken by faith or caused me to junk in the doctrine of inerrancy, nevertheless, I understand and believe that true to the faith Christians do leave that particular doctrine behind.

 

[Servus]

I like the fact that the Bible has contradictions and discrepancies. That just goes to show that it wasn't doctored up. Individual eyewitness accounts don't normally match up perfectly, and start looking suspicious when they do.

 

[Hmm]

Is there such a thing as a Christian universalist church or movement? What's the "official" Christian view on universalism: is it "respectable” or heretical?

 

[Servus]

Is there such a thing as a Christian universalist church or movement? What's the "official" Christian view on universalism: is it "respectable” or heretical?

None that I know of regarding Orthodox, mainline and evangelical Christian universalists. Although I did see a series of hardly viewed videos on UR by the pastor of some small church that has Messianic symbolism. So there's possibility a few small obscure ones. The traditional view is that it's heresy. As I recall when a well known evangelical pastor named Rob Bell wrote a universalist type book called "Love Wins" in 2011, it sparked a lot of outrage within the evangelical community.

As far a movement goes, sort of. But I'm not aware of any organization per se.

 

[Hmm]

The traditional view is that it's heresy.

I can't I'm surprised but it is a sad indictment on the church that such a grace centred view which has a good amount of biblical support is heretical while views such as limited atonement are deemed acceptable. I've heard of the Rob Bell book but not read it. It was a best seller I believe.

 

[Servus]

I can't I'm surprised but it is a sad indictment on the church that such a grace centred view which has a good amount of biblical support is heretical while views such as limited atonement are deemed acceptable. I've heard of the Rob Bell book but not read it. It was a best seller I believe.

I believe I've heard that fear of hellfire was used as a weapon by the Holy Roman Empire to get what they wanted. So that made the taboo of questioning eternal torment pretty indelible. There's probably a lot of closet UR pastors and theologians, who don't want their reputation damaged.

I think also there's probably a lot of pastors who would be alright with a member believing in UR, but they wouldn't want them teaching it to the congregation.

 

[Hmm]

There's probably a lot of closet UR pastors and theologians, who don't want their reputation damaged.

I imagine that's so. A difficult position to be in I guess if your job's at stake.

 

[Servus]

Now some of the biggest names in UR I know of these days are David Bentley Hart and Brad Jersak. Both of whom are Eastern Orthodox, and as far as I know the EO church hasn't spoken against them. Then there's the Catholic friar Richard Rohr, and he hasn't been excommunicated or anything like that, that I know of. UR seems to be more of a sore spot with Protestant Evangelicals. Especially Fundamentalists.

 

[Servus]

I imagine that's so. A difficult position to be in I guess if your job's at stake.

I'll have to corner my pastor someday and ask him what he thinks about it.

 

[Hmm]

Now some of the biggest names in UR I know of these days are David Bentley Hart and Brad Jersak. Both of whom are Eastern Orthodox, and as far as I know the EO church hasn't spoken against them. Then there's the Catholic friar Richard Rohr, and he hasn't been excommunicated or anything like that, that I know of. UR seems to be more of a sore spot with Protestant Evangelicals. Especially Fundamentalists.

Thanks for the names. I used to go to an Anglican cathedral and I remember one sermon given by the clergy team where the guy got quite emotional. He used to be a vicar and said he was almost losing his faith because he was always in fear of being complained about to the Bishop if he said the "wrong" thing. And these were just ordinary things that he'd learnt about at training college. He said getting the position at the Cathedral saved him because he was almost the freedom to speak more openly about his beliefs. I think that also why some people gravitate to cathedrals as members of the congregation. I was told by a minister a couple of years ago that cathedral membership was up in the Church of England while church membership was down but can't vouch for that though.

 

[zoidar]

Point being it’s just too laboured, many Christians want to lumber the Bible with more than it’s trying to deliver.

Yes, that's a problem... still we won't agree on the UR idea.

 

[Cormack]

Yes, that's a problem... still we won't agree on the UR idea.

It depends on what you mean by agreeing on “the UR idea.” I’m assuming we both agree with the idea that it’s better to prefer the universal reconciliation of everyone, rather than to have a preference for people being divorced from Gods love and then punished forever.

 

[zoidar]

None that I know of regarding Orthodox, mainline and evangelical Christian universalists. Although I did see a series of hardly viewed videos on UR by the pastor of some small church that has Messianic symbolism. So there's possibility a few small obscure ones. The traditional view is that it's heresy. As I recall when a well known evangelical pastor named Rob Bell wrote a universalist type book called "Love Wins" in 2011, it sparked a lot of outrage within the evangelical community.

As far a movement goes, sort of. But I'm not aware of any organization per se.

I read that book by Rob Bell. I don't understand why it sparked outrage. From what I saw he was grossly misrepresenting texts. If he would make a good case for UR, then I'd more understand why people got angry with him. I felt sorry for him.

 

[zoidar]

It depends on what you mean by agreeing on “the UR idea.” I’m assuming we both agree with the idea that it’s better to prefer the universal reconciliation of everyone, rather than to have a preference for people being divorced from Gods love and then punished forever.

Yes, the idea is preferable. That's why it's a temptation to believe it. As I see it not that much different from that sin can feel good or even feel right, yet still be a crime against God.

 

[Servus]

I read that book by Rob Bell. I don't understand why it sparked outrage. From what I saw he was grossly misrepresenting texts. If he would make a good case for UR, then I'd more understand why people got angry with him. I felt sorry for him.

He seemed to get slammed a lot harder than others. Maybe because he was a pastor.

That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation 2019 by David Bentley Hart is probably a much better book on the subject.

 

[Servus]

Yes, the idea is preferable. That's why it's a temptation to believe it. As I see it not that much different from that sin can feel good or even feel right, yet still be a crime against God.

I don't see any I have to believe in it personally. As I see it all I have to believe in is Jesus.

 

[zoidar]

I can't I'm surprised but it is a sad indictment on the church that such a grace centred view which has a good amount of biblical support is heretical while views such as limited atonement are deemed acceptable. I've heard of the Rob Bell book but not read it. It was a best seller I believe.

I didn't find it very good. Even a person holding to UR wants good textual interpretations. I think that lacked in Rob Bell's book

 

[Cormack]

Yes, the idea is preferable.

So in this case it’s something we agree on, since the topic has never been about the absolute fact of universal reconciliation being true or untrue. It’s always been a topic about Christian hearts and whether or not they can handle the plain task of entertaining an idea they don’t already hold.

The more interesting question is why are some people still attempting to argue in the “I don’t prefer it and here’s why” camp, because almost 1000 messages in and they haven’t provided one logically justifiable reason.

What we do find in the comments are users giving a cursory “sure” to the “would you prefer it” question, paying lip service to the question, then proceeding to write waves and waves of text about why universalism isn’t true.

To me that’s very telling.

 

[zoidar]

He seemed to get slammed a lot harder than others. Maybe because he was a pastor.

That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation 2019 by David Bentley Hart is probably a much better book on the subject.

Yeah, maybe that was why. I saw an interview with Rob Bell. I'm sure it's still on youtube. The interviewer really attacked Rob in a very unchristian fashion. That was not allright.