More than 150 Houston hospital workers fired or quit after refusing COVID-19 vaccine

[Aldebaran]

Surely if serious side effects of the vaccine were so prevalent that they could compare to the serious side effects of the actual virus the patients would be stacking up in the ICUs like they do with the covid 19 virus.

How do you know they aren't? Patients are indeed ending up in hospitals with serious reactions from vaccines. The ones who die from it don't stay in the hospital very long.
New Jersey man hospitalized after adverse reactions to 2nd Moderna vaccine shot

 

[JustSomeBloke]

How do you not see the illogic in this? Yes, I agree that "the risk/benefit ratio of the covid vaccines is most likely not equal across all groups and ages". But if that is so, and even if it were shown that the vaccine risks outweigh the benefits for certain groups, the logical thing would be to stop vaccinating those groups, not suspend the entire vaccination program! And, in fact, this has been done in my own country! They advised young women to not take AZ! Did they stop all vaccinations? Of course not!

Look: Suppose it were to turn out that seatbelts actually cause more harm that good for toddlers. Would they tell adults to stop wearing seatbelts?

Pausing vaccinations and re-assessing vaccination policy isn't illogical from a UK perspective. Almost 100% of elderly and vulnerable have now received two vaccinations. And for some time now, daily covid deaths have been single figures or low double figures. To put the daily covid deaths in perspective, around 400+ people a day die of cancer in the UK. Why would you want to continue vaccinations, instead of pausing for a moment to consider whether it's worthwhile, safe, and necessary for younger people? It sounds like you want vaccination advice and policy to be frozen in time, and never react to new information. Maintaining the same position, regardless of new information, is unscientific and irrational.

No I don't think it is morally questionable. Again, it is hard to believe you thought this through as the problem with your argument is easily demonstrated by a representative example.

It is a long-established principal in medical ethics, that treatment must be beneficial to the patient. Are you claiming to be some kind of intellectual colossus, who has spotted the massive mistake made by the all the great medical ethicists and philosophers from years gone by?

Suppose that the risk of death to young people posed by the vaccine is 1 in 1,000 and risk of those young people dying from covid is 1 in 10,000 - ten times worse.

Well, of course, the 25 year old young person is better off as an individual to not get the vaccine.

But, again, you conceal critical information, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to believe you are not doing so intentionally.

Covid is a contagious disease!!!! It is entirely plausible that if the young person does not take the vaccine, the risk their 60 year old vaccinated father dies from covid goes up from 1 in 500 to 1 in 50.

With the 25 year old getting the vaccine: their risk of death is 1 in 1,000, Dad's risk of death is 1 in 500.

With the 25 year old not getting the vaccine: their risk of death is 1 in 10,000, Dad's risk of death is 1 in 50.

Do you not see how we, as a society might still be better off in the 25 year old takes the vaccine.

Pilot studies on re-opening mass gatherings in the UK have demonstrated that covid isn't very contagious at all. So that's the end of your argument.

And no one is forcing him to get it at all!!!

Here in the UK, there is a lot of political talk of needing two vaccinations to go on holiday. If that is the case, then denying people travel, or suggesting that people will be denied travel, is a form of coercion.

So let's be clear: you are effectively advocating that the 25 year old be denied the option of an increase in his own personal risk (by getting the vaccine) in order to reduce the risk to his father.

No. I'm advocating for a re-assessment of vaccine safety, based on all the latest adverse effect logs on Yellow Card and VAERS. And as I previously stated, it's long-established in medical ethics, that treatment must be for the benefit of the patient.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

VAERS isn't a reliable source...it's unverified claims that populate a database that's entirely user-submitted. It's no more reliable than Yelp.

I went into this in great detail in another thread when another user tried to use it to justify their anti-vaccine position in another thread a while back...

VAERS - Report an Adverse Event Step 1

This is the link where people can submit it, it requires no proof of causation, and literally anyone can fill it out based on what they "think" happened... you could fill out a false report right now if you really wanted to, and it'd be available in the downloadable spreadsheets within a few days.


And if you want a sample of just how reliable that data is... they have an option to download the entire database for 2021 in an easy to read CSV file.

But just a few highlights of some of these totally reliable VAERS submissions of adverse covid vaccine reactions...

"About 5 hrs after receiving vaccine muscle ache in shoulder. Penis reduced in size, length, and circumference is significant since following day and pain in penal area from day 3 and day 5 most noticeable. Shape of penis has changed (noticed on day 4 due to an erection) and the skin has become loose with the size reduction (like baggy pants.)" -- a very scientific description, and totally not a 16 year old kid trying to make cheesy anatomy jokes.

"Explosive Diarhea and a touch of the AIDS" -- I'm glad this person only got 'a touch' of the AIDS and not full blown AIDS...that could've been serious...and they almost spelled diarrhea correctly.

"I feel like <***> dude!" -- a very thorough assessment, I'm sure that's the official terminology they teach in med school.

"666 Blood clots, heart attack, died 5 times survived, Blood is very thick blood thinners unable to thin" -- yeah, I'm sure that happened.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that epidemiologists will accept every adverse effect log without question. Weeding out the kind of reports you have posted would be part of the first screening process, before more detailed examination and analysis is carried out. They will apply statistical techniques to determine which adverse effects are overrepresented in vaccine recipients. I'm sure they will also look at reports from professional clinicians and hospital admissions too. Good researchers and analysts would never place too much importance on just one source such as VAERS. It's about looking at the bigger picture, and how everything fits together.

 

[cow451]

VAERS isn't a reliable source...it's unverified claims that populate a database that's entirely user-submitted. It's no more reliable than Yelp.

I went into this in great detail in another thread when another user tried to use it to justify their anti-vaccine position in another thread a while back...

VAERS - Report an Adverse Event Step 1

This is the link where people can submit it, it requires no proof of causation, and literally anyone can fill it out based on what they "think" happened... you could fill out a false report right now if you really wanted to, and it'd be available in the downloadable spreadsheets within a few days.


And if you want a sample of just how reliable that data is... they have an option to download the entire database for 2021 in an easy to read CSV file.

But just a few highlights of some of these totally reliable VAERS submissions of adverse covid vaccine reactions...

"About 5 hrs after receiving vaccine muscle ache in shoulder. Penis reduced in size, length, and circumference is significant since following day and pain in penal area from day 3 and day 5 most noticeable. Shape of penis has changed (noticed on day 4 due to an erection) and the skin has become loose with the size reduction (like baggy pants.)" -- a very scientific description, and totally not a 16 year old kid trying to make cheesy anatomy jokes.

"Explosive Diarhea and a touch of the AIDS" -- I'm glad this person only got 'a touch' of the AIDS and not full blown AIDS...that could've been serious...and they almost spelled diarrhea correctly.

"I feel like <***> dude!" -- a very thorough assessment, I'm sure that's the official terminology they teach in med school.

"666 Blood clots, heart attack, died 5 times survived, Blood is very thick blood thinners unable to thin" -- yeah, I'm sure that happened.

Antichrist blood clots. Scary.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Nurses may not be "as qualified" as doctors, but they sure are closer to being qualified that pretty much everyone else in society, including the politicians. The nurses administer the shots, and have more face-to-face time with patients than doctors do. It's not as if they're in the dark about medical issues.

Eh...I don't think that's true.

Specifically, as I touched on in my previous post, there are different types/levels of nurses, some may be closer to "being qualified", but many are not.

CNA (no degree required, can be completed with a 4-week training course)
LPN (no degree required, can be completed with a 1-year training course)
RN (requires a Associate or Bachelor of Science in Nursing, plus licensing)
NP - Nurse practitioner (requires a completion of all of the steps to become an RN + 1 year experience practicing as an RN, and then getting a Masters Degree in Nursing Science)

No offense to the positions, they're a position that's often thankless and is a tough job I wouldn't want to do... But, CNAs' and LPNs' opinions shouldn't be regarded as particularly valuable on the topic of vaccines and immunology.

RNs, maybe to a certain degree as they do have experience administering immunizations and medications (in a hospital setting, if that's where they work)

Nurse Practitioners would probably be the closest...however, even their focus (with regards to disease prevention and disease management) is on acute and episodic illness.
(which is why when you go to an UrgiCare or sometimes even a Family Doctor's office, they'll have an NP on staff who can cover things like sinus infections, strep throat, ordering certain tests like x-rays)


To use a "tech comparison" (I like to use those because that's the field I work in)
Immunologist MD/PhD = Technical Lead/Sr Software Engineer for a major tech corporation

Nurse Practitioner = Good seasoned mid-senior level developer/database administrator who can be fully trusted to tackle some big projects on their own, but would still have to consult with the tech leads on some projects/issues.

RN = IT Help Desk... a tough job (that should be commended), dealing with (sometimes difficult) people "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak... has more knowledge than your average person on tech issues and can even help solve some of them themselves, but great at gathering the info and getting that info to the right people to look at.

LPN = Geek Squad member from Best Buy. Can handle the very basic and obvious stuff. If you need someone to swap out a graphics card or replace a power supply, they can handle that.

CNA = When your Aunt talks about her friend Marge from church who has a nephew that's "really good with computers"...if you need someone to install and run AVG for someone else who's completely tech-illiterate, Marge's nephew is your guy.


You wouldn't trust a CNA or LPN on matters of advanced immunology for the same reason you wouldn't task Marge's nephew or someone from the Best Buy Geek Squad to look into how the Experian breach happened.

 

[FireDragon76]

How do you know they aren't? Patients are indeed ending up in hospitals with serious reactions from vaccines. The ones who die from it don't stay in the hospital very long.
New Jersey man hospitalized after adverse reactions to 2nd Moderna vaccine shot

Those side effects are relatively minor, and certainly no reason to forgo widespread vaccination.

 

[Aldebaran]

Eh...I don't think that's true.

Specifically, as I touched on in my previous post, there are different types/levels of nurses, some may be closer to "being qualified", but many are not.

CNA (no degree required, can be completed with a 4-week training course)
LPN (no degree required, can be completed with a 1-year training course)
RN (requires a Associate or Bachelor of Science in Nursing, plus licensing)
NP - Nurse practitioner (requires a completion of all of the steps to become an RN + 1 year experience practicing as an RN, and then getting a Masters Degree in Nursing Science)

No offense to the positions, they're a position that's often thankless and is a tough job I wouldn't want to do... But, CNAs' and LPNs' opinions shouldn't be regarded as particularly valuable on the topic of vaccines and immunology.

RNs, maybe to a certain degree as they do have experience administering immunizations and medications (in a hospital setting, if that's where they work)

Nurse Practitioners would probably be the closest...however, even their focus (with regards to disease prevention and disease management) is on acute and episodic illness.
(which is why when you go to an UrgiCare or sometimes even a Family Doctor's office, they'll have an NP on staff who can cover things like sinus infections, strep throat, ordering certain tests like x-rays)


To use a "tech comparison" (I like to use those because that's the field I work in)
Immunologist MD/PhD = Technical Lead/Sr Software Engineer for a major tech corporation

Nurse Practitioner = Good seasoned mid-senior level developer/database administrator who can be fully trusted to tackle some big projects on their own, but would still have to consult with the tech leads on some projects/issues.

RN = IT Help Desk... a tough job (that should be commended), dealing with (sometimes difficult) people "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak... has more knowledge than your average person on tech issues and can even help solve some of them themselves, but great at gathering the info and getting that info to the right people to look at.

LPN = Geek Squad member from Best Buy. Can handle the very basic and obvious stuff. If you need someone to swap out a graphics card or replace a power supply, they can handle that.

CNA = When your Aunt talks about her friend Marge from church who has a nephew that's "really good with computers"...if you need someone to install and run AVG for someone else who's completely tech-illiterate, Marge's nephew is your guy.


You wouldn't trust a CNA or LPN on matters of advanced immunology for the same reason you wouldn't task Marge's nephew or someone from the Best Buy Geek Squad to look into how the Experian breach happened.

Let me put it this way:
If we were talking about food safety instead of healthcare and vaccines, you'd probably want the input of an expert at the FDA, right? But would you also be willing to listen to what a grocery store worker told you happened behind the scenes? How about a cook or dishwasher at a restaurant? They may not be experts in their field, but they have closer experience with the subject matter.

 

[Aldebaran]

Those side effects are relatively minor, and certainly no reason to forgo widespread vaccination.

The ones who end up dead would disagree.

 

[cow451]

Let me put it this way:
If we were talking about food safety instead of healthcare and vaccines, you'd probably want the input of an expert at the FDA, right? But would you also be willing to listen to what a grocery store worker told you happened behind the scenes? How about a cook or dishwasher at a restaurant? They may not be experts in their field, but they have closer experience with the subject matter.

I have had COVID and the vaccination. I also worked throughout the pandemic as an essential worker. Therefore, I am an expert. As an expert I am recommending vaccination.

 

[cow451]

The ones who end up dead would disagree.

And how many people have died so far from COVID?

 

[FireDragon76]

The ones who end up dead would disagree.

The ones like me who got vaccinated are thankful we are alive and that we didn't buy into your misleading narrative. And there are many more of us than there are of you.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Let me put it this way:
If we were talking about food safety instead of healthcare and vaccines, you'd probably want the input of an expert at the FDA, right? But would you also be willing to listen to what a grocery store worker told you happened behind the scenes? How about a cook or dishwasher at a restaurant? They may not be experts in their field, but they have closer experience with the subject matter.

They may have more insight into "do they spit in the food when they get mad at the customers at this particular Applebee's location"...but would I trust their advice on overall food safety recommendations? no.

There's no such thing as "expertise by proximity". Meaning, simply working in the same building as people who do understand those things deeply, doesn't give them any special insight into the matter.

I'll be blunt (and it's not intended to be disparaging, as I said, it's a tough job and one I wouldn't want, and one that's thankless, and not paid nearly enough for what they have to put up with)... a person who helps patients bathe and swaps out their bedpans doesn't have have any more expertise on matters of immunology or any other high-level medical matter than the average person. (apart from job-specific functions)

I have a family member that's a CNA, she has a very tough job, I wouldn't want it... you tell me to change a 70 yo adult's diaper while they're cussing you out and being difficult, I'd be like "nope, I'm out...I quit" she's vastly underpaid given what she's subjected to. But she's certainly no expert on medical matters. If working in proximity to actual doctors conveyed expertise, she wouldn't have gotten herself roped into an essential oil pyramid scheme.

And she certainly doesn't understand pharmaceuticals more than a "non-nurse"... she tried to explain to everyone last Easter the difference between the different types of covid vaccines, and got it completely wrong.

 

[Aldebaran]

The ones like me who got vaccinated are thankful we are alive and that we didn't buy into your misleading narrative. And there are many more of us than there are of you.

That's just the thing--we tend to be thankful or regretful of a decision based on the results we get. You got the shot and suffered no ill effect. But I've heard of others who were hesitant and then finally got it, and then regretted it when they ended up in the hospital with injuries they never recovered from. Those who end up dead probably regretted it up to their last breath.

 

[FireDragon76]

Let me put it this way:
If we were talking about food safety instead of healthcare and vaccines, you'd probably want the input of an expert at the FDA, right? But would you also be willing to listen to what a grocery store worker told you happened behind the scenes? How about a cook or dishwasher at a restaurant? They may not be experts in their field, but they have closer experience with the subject matter.

And could still be profoundly ignorant of the subject matter. Assumed familiarity is not expertise. We don't let cutmen be brain surgeons, even though both deal with people with brain trauma, after all.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's just the thing--we tend to be thankful or regretful of a decision based on the results we get. You got the shot and suffered no ill effect. But I've heard of others who were hesitant and then finally got it, and then regretted it when they ended up in the hospital with injuries they never recovered from. Those who end up dead probably regretted it up to their last breath.

You've "heard" of people on websites propagated by bots and Russian trolls, not serious journalists.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The ones who end up dead would disagree.

Even if we pretended for a moment that everyone's claims about their negative experiences with the vaccines were true, the anti-vaccine side of the argument still has an awful lot of ground to make up.

For instance, the myocarditis conversation.

There have been ~1200 cases of myocarditis that could possibly be linked to the vaccine in people under 30 in the US. (but only a few of those cases have ended in death)

Compare that to the outcomes from covid itself...

Just in my own state of Ohio (1 out of the 50 states), for people under 30:
There have been nearly 5,000 hospitalizations from the disease itself.

And across the nation, there have been 2,400 deaths from coronavirus for people under 30.

Statistically speaking, getting the vaccine is still far less risky than leaving yourself vulnerable to the disease itself.

 

[FireDragon76]

Even if we pretended for a moment that everyone's claims about their negative experiences with the vaccines were true, the anti-vaccine side of the argument still has an awful lot of ground to make up.

For instance, the myocarditis conversation.

There have been ~1200 cases of myocarditis that could possibly be linked to the vaccine in people under 30 in the US. (but only a few of those cases have ended in death)

Compare that to the outcomes from covid itself...

Just in my own state of Ohio (1 out of the 50 states), for people under 30:
There have been nearly 5,000 hospitalizations from the disease itself.

And across the nation, there have been 2,400 deaths from coronavirus for people under 30.

Statistically speaking, getting the vaccine is still far less risky than leaving yourself vulnerable to the disease itself.

You're an ocean of wisdom, relatively speaking.

You and @cow451 should be getting medals.

And yet, that's just a testament to the sad state of the world where we have to explain to people why a vaccine is not some evil conspiracy by corporations and the Clinton Foundation, Bill Gates, or a devious plot by the space-laser wielding elders of Zion.

 

[Hank77]

How do you know they aren't?

Because the ICU units around the country aren't filling up to capacity with them and refrigeration trucks aren't holding their dead bodies.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You're an ocean of wisdom, relatively speaking.

I don't know about that... I'll settle for a "mid-sized pond"

 

[cow451]

You're an ocean of wisdom, relatively speaking.

You and @cow451 should be getting medals.

#blush