God's Existence Proved in 5 Minutes

[Mark Quayle]

He does say it though.

Oh I’m not opposed to the idea of final consequence or rewards at the end of life, or even the potential for intervention. But let’s face it intervention is not what we get. God has dropped the kids off at summer camp, and until he returns at the end you are on your own sink or swim.

Aaargh! I wrote a good response and my computer froze up trying to get it online.

Your idea of God doesn't seem to me to include the fact of his omnipotence. He is absolutely First Cause, "in whom we live and breathe and have our being". One way this is put is to say that he is the essence of reality, though to some that might suggest pantheism. As such, he is therefore intimately involved in everything.

To me the same concept informs all naturalism; it is not of itself merely natural —it is all miracle, being made and upheld by God. 'Intervention', to me, is a fiction, unless all one means is the same as what they mean by 'miracle': just unusual, by apparently sudden cause instead of by the usual chain of causation.

Either way, to say there is no intervention, is a subjective analysis of what happens.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Why would I be sharing these things with agnostics and atheists? Because I trust that, if God wants you to be saved, He will use the evidences I present as the means to awaken faith in your mind and heart. While God is responsible for awakening faith, He uses human means to do so.

 

[pitabread]

Why would I be sharing these things with agnostics and atheists? Because I trust that, if God wants you to be saved, He will use the evidences I present as the means to awaken faith in your mind and heart. While God is responsible for awakening faith, He uses human means to do so.

This is the C/E forum. You might want to try here instead: Christian Apologetics

Also, I've longed maintained that if there really was a supernatural deity that had a vested interest in making people believe in it, it would do a better job screening its sales people.

My general impression of evangelists is that they're trying to satisfy their own ego.

 

[Phred]

Aaargh! I wrote a good response and my computer froze up trying to get it online.

Your idea of God doesn't seem to me to include the fact of his omnipotence. He is absolutely First Cause, "in whom we live and breathe and have our being". One way this is put is to say that he is the essence of reality, though to some that might suggest pantheism. As such, he is therefore intimately involved in everything.

To me the same concept informs all naturalism; it is not of itself merely natural —it is all miracle, being made and upheld by God. 'Intervention', to me, is a fiction, unless all one means is the same as what they mean by 'miracle': just unusual, by apparently sudden cause instead of by the usual chain of causation.

Either way, to say there is no intervention, is a subjective analysis of what happens.

I know you are desperate to have your ideas given praise and merit. Sadly they don't deserve it. Speaking in absolute terms doesn't make them any less false. "the fact of his omnipotence" What fact? What god?

You zoom right past the proving part and start with the "it's a fact" part. Whoa there tiger. Slow down. Somewhere you missed out on a lot of logic 101 and basic reasoning. You don't get to start assigning traits to something you can't even manage to prove is real.

 

[Vap841]

Aaargh! I wrote a good response and my computer froze up trying to get it online.

Your idea of God doesn't seem to me to include the fact of his omnipotence. He is absolutely First Cause, "in whom we live and breathe and have our being". One way this is put is to say that he is the essence of reality, though to some that might suggest pantheism. As such, he is therefore intimately involved in everything.

To me the same concept informs all naturalism; it is not of itself merely natural —it is all miracle, being made and upheld by God. 'Intervention', to me, is a fiction, unless all one means is the same as what they mean by 'miracle': just unusual, by apparently sudden cause instead of by the usual chain of causation.

Either way, to say there is no intervention, is a subjective analysis of what happens.

Yeah basically I feel torn between dualism and pantheism, I could sway back & forth, I guess the dualism side of me was winning when I opened this account lol. It all comes down to my most basic question which I fluctuate back & forth with, which simply is is there a grand consciousness attached to ultimate reality, or does reality just produce entities with consciousness? So if the pantheism side of me is winning out (where reality just produces conscious entities) then ‘Intervention’ doesn’t even make sense it’s all just automated and only conscious entities intervene with things at a micro level, however when the dualism side of me is winning out then a grand consciousness being able to make decisions and intervene on things at a grand macro level (overruling the laws of nature) definitely makes sense to me.

 

[Bradskii]

Meanwhile a kid managed to put Rick Astley's song into a term paper.

To be honest, I never noticed the song. I thought it was a badly copied print. You'd have to
be on the ball to notice it without the highlights. I hope he got a good mark for the paper
or at least a pat on the back for the work he put into it. Although I have to say that it is
not that difficult (hint).
To get back on track, I'm sure that if you studied any literary text you'd care to mention there'd
be some numerical quirk that would link pages or words or letters that you'd toss around and
that would result in some seemingly miraculous combination. But if Humble Disciple thinks it
is some divine code that leads us to God, then so be it. Although not sure why he'd select
the Torah to do it. If you treat everything within the Torah as gospel (no pun intended) then the
question arises - was Jesus therefore just a prophet?

 

[Bradskii]

It all comes down to my most basic question which I fluctuate back & forth with, which simply is is there a grand consciousness attached to ultimate reality, or does reality just produce entities with consciousness?

I go with Option 2. We're bits of the universe that have become self aware.

How cool is that?

 

[AV1611VET]

To be honest, I never noticed the song.

It smacks of intelligent design, doesn't it?

 

[Bradskii]

It smacks of intelligent design, doesn't it?

Ah, you missed it...

 

[ruthiesea]

“For Judaism, the search for religious certainty through science or metaphysics is not merely fallacious but ultimately pagan. To suppose that G-d is scientifically provable is to identify G-d with what is observable, and this for Judaism is idolatry.” ~ Lord Jonathan Sacks

 

[AV1611VET]

“For Judaism, the search for religious certainty through science or metaphysics is not merely fallacious but ultimately pagan. To suppose that G-d is scientifically provable is to identify G-d with what is observable, and this for Judaism is idolatry.” ~ Lord Jonathan Sacks

I love that quote, and I would agree with it but for one thing:

What is your take on cause-and-effect evidence for the existence of God?

Synagogues, temples, holy days, Sabbaths, and the like?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I know you are desperate to have your ideas given praise and merit. Sadly they don't deserve it. Speaking in absolute terms doesn't make them any less false. "the fact of his omnipotence" What fact? What god?

You zoom right past the proving part and start with the "it's a fact" part. Whoa there tiger. Slow down. Somewhere you missed out on a lot of logic 101 and basic reasoning. You don't get to start assigning traits to something you can't even manage to prove is real.

While we are being arrogant, sarcastic and condescending, perhaps you didn't notice the guy I answered (VAP 841) made an assertion presupposing God's existence.

 

[Mike from NJ]

To get back on track, I'm sure that if you studied any literary text you'd care to mention there'd be some numerical quirk that would link pages or words or letters that you'd toss around and that would result in some seemingly miraculous combination. But if Humble Disciple thinks it is some divine code that leads us to God, then so be it. Although not sure why he'd select the Torah to do it. If you treat everything within the Torah as gospel (no pun intended) then the question arises - was Jesus therefore just a prophet?

I remember back when The Bible Code was a thing there was a piece of software that allowed someone to put in any text, then it would check all sorts of patterns (e.g. every 3rd letter, backwards every 40th character) then it would compare the results with its dictionary to see what "secret" words it found. And it always found something whether it was in "To Kill a Mockingbird" or "The Cat in the Hat".

 

[Bradskii]

I remember back when The Bible Code was a thing there was a piece of software that allowed someone to put in any text, then it would check all sorts of patterns (e.g. every 3rd letter, backwards every 40th character) then it would compare the results with its dictionary to see what "secret" words it found. And it always found something whether it was in "To Kill a Mockingbird" or "The Cat in the Hat".

Well, I'll be...

Welcome to the forum, Mike. Great to see you on board! Look forward to catching up.

 

[Vap841]

I go with Option 2. We're bits of the universe that have become self aware.

How cool is that?

Very cool. I definitely think about reincarnation a lot. I think that maybe forgetting, and then being reborn again is a healthy thing because imagine if you had to carry baggage around from multiple lifetimes? It’s hard enough to put some things behind you from one lifetime.

 

[DamianWarS]

How do we know that the forces that created this universe are watching over it, or care about it, just because there were forces that fired it off into existence? Why can’t I build a car and then care less what happens with it after it leaves the warehouse?

it's true, Schroeder doesn't prove God, he proves a space for God to preexist in. a space that science can't see.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

it's true, Schroeder doesn't prove God, he proves a space for God to preexist in. a space that science can't see.

He hasn't proved anything of the sort. All he's demonstrated is the limits of what we can know through current science. That doesn't prove there's a space for any god(s) to preexist in.

 

[DamianWarS]

I remember back when The Bible Code was a thing there was a piece of software that allowed someone to put in any text, then it would check all sorts of patterns (e.g. every 3rd letter, backwards every 40th character) then it would compare the results with its dictionary to see what "secret" words it found. And it always found something whether it was in "To Kill a Mockingbird" or "The Cat in the Hat".

I'm not a big bible code person but I will say using English code on a translated text is a flawed way of approaching it and in my opinion discredits it. finding the Hebrew characters for "TORH" in the Hebrew text in a certain pattern may be a bit more genuine but it is nothing remarkable and I think may suggest post-Torah corruption.

 

[Bradskii]

it's true, Schroeder doesn't prove God, he proves a space for God to preexist in.

What, like a gap of some sorts...

 

[DamianWarS]

What, like a gap of some sorts...

a space that pre-exists with order