IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

[Davy]

The more complex the debate and contradiction you hold the shorter your answers get and they never address the scriptures brought up.

That's just some more derogatory attempts to defamation, even skirting around the actual Scriptures I've shown as evidence for what I proclaim. And it's real funny to watch these puffed-up types who want you to think they know what God's Word says, when they really don't know. If they did know, they'd be able to address the actual Scripture evidence that I post, instead to skirting those to flee them.

 

[Davy]

Look at this brethren in Christ Jesus...

Matt 21:33
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
KJV

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
KJV

In that parable of the vineyard Jesus gave, who do you think that "vineyard" represents per His Word? It was first given here...

Isa 5:1-7
5 Now will I sing to My wellbeloved a song of My beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
KJV

Notice how "Judah" is mentioned separate from that "house of Israel". This is because God back in Solomon's day rent the kingdom of Israel from Solomon's son, and gave ten tribes to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, a northern area tribe over the ten tribes. Old Israel became two separate kingdoms, Judah in the south was called the "kingdom of Judah" (Jews) or "house of Judah", and in the north Israel was called the "kingdom of Israel" or "house of Israel". (See 1 Kings 11 forward about this).

So in Isaiah 5, God is rebuking the men of Judah, because they were to be righteous leaders over all the 12 tribes of Israel. And the vineyard there symbolized the majority of the children of Israel of the ten northern tribes.

Thus in Matthew 21, the "vineyard" Lord Jesus was pointing to was the ten tribed "house of Israel" that was scattered among the Gentiles never to return to the holy land.

The "nation" Jesus was pointing to that would instead bring fruits of the vineyard in Him involves the nations in The Gospel that believe on Him, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile.

The JEWS really hate... this, because they want the gullible to believe that God's Promises are still with them, when they are not, but instead have gone to those in Christ Jesus! This is why they are ever trying to tear down Christ's Church, and those who proclaim what God's Word actually says.

So can we find David's throne still in Jerusalem today? Nope.

Can we find the nation of Israel with the majority of corn and wine blessings in the world? Nope, that claim can only be found in the Christian west nations.

Can we find the nation of Israel with the most powerful military in the world? Again nope, for the Western Christian nations still have the greatest military strength in the world.

Can we find The Gospel of Jesus Christ in the nation state of Israel? Only among a minority, as orthodox Jews in Jerusalem still burn New Testament Bibles at times.

Did all 12 tribes of Israel return to the nation state of Israel? Nope. Jewish scholars have admitted that the ten tribes are lost, some of them believe they never will return, and others of them that believe they will return in final. What does God's Word say? In Amos 9:9, God said He will gather the house of Israel as corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground.

 

[RickReads]

Look at this brethren in Christ Jesus...

Matt 21:33
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
KJV

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
KJV

In that parable of the vineyard Jesus gave, who do you think that "vineyard" represents per His Word? It was first given here...

Isa 5:1-7
5 Now will I sing to My wellbeloved a song of My beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
KJV

Notice how "Judah" is mentioned separate from that "house of Israel". This is because God back in Solomon's day rent the kingdom of Israel from Solomon's son, and gave ten tribes to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, a northern area tribe over the ten tribes. Old Israel became two separate kingdoms, Judah in the south was called the "kingdom of Judah" (Jews) or "house of Judah", and in the north Israel was called the "kingdom of Israel" or "house of Israel". (See 1 Kings 11 forward about this).

So in Isaiah 5, God is rebuking the men of Judah, because they were to be righteous leaders over all the 12 tribes of Israel. And the vineyard there symbolized the majority of the children of Israel of the ten northern tribes.

Thus in Matthew 21, the "vineyard" Lord Jesus was pointing to was the ten tribed "house of Israel" that was scattered among the Gentiles never to return to the holy land.

The "nation" Jesus was pointing to that would instead bring fruits of the vineyard in Him involves the nations in The Gospel that believe on Him, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile.

The JEWS really hate... this, because they want the gullible to believe that God's Promises are still with them, when they are not, but instead have gone to those in Christ Jesus! This is why they are ever trying to tear down Christ's Church, and those who proclaim what God's Word actually says.

So can we find David's throne still in Jerusalem today? Nope.

Can we find the nation of Israel with the majority of corn and wine blessings in the world? Nope, that claim can only be found in the Christian west nations.

Can we find the nation of Israel with the most powerful military in the world? Again nope, for the Western Christian nations still have the greatest military strength in the world.

Can we find The Gospel of Jesus Christ in the nation state of Israel? Only among a minority, as orthodox Jews in Jerusalem still burn New Testament Bibles at times.

Did all 12 tribes of Israel return to the nation state of Israel? Nope. Jewish scholars have admitted that the ten tribes are lost, some of them believe they never will return, and others of them that believe they will return in final. What does God's Word say? In Amos 9:9, God said He will gather the house of Israel as corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground.

This age is coming towards its end and there will be another one after. The next age will be different.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Clare73]

Where do we find "nations" referring to Israel in Scripture, that I may examine it?

Carefully study Roman 9, including the reference to Hosea (the whole narrative).

Paul states, as does Peter, that the declaration of Hosea 1:9 and the promise of
Hosea 1:10, Hosea 2:23 to Israel are fulfilled in the Gentiles.(Romans 9:24-26; 1 Peter 2:10).

Where do you find "nations" being used for "Israel" there?

These verses refer to Israel, specifically the "house of Israel", the people of the northern kingdom.
?

Where do we find "nations" being used for "Israel" there?

 

[RickReads]

Where do we find "nations" being used for "Israel" there?

10 lost tribes myth.

What happened to the lost tribes of Israel? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Clare73]

10 lost tribes myth.

What happened to the lost tribes of Israel? | GotQuestions.org

Thanks.

You "spied" on my post #454.

 

[RickReads]

Thanks.

You "spied" on my post #454.

I`ve read every post on this thread.

 

[Guojing]

The more complex the debate and contradiction you hold the shorter your answers get and they never address the scriptures brought up.

Jer 31 another passage for you to consider

Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

When was the city rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the whole valley? It says from that rebuilding it will be holy and never thrown down again. Now this cannot be New Jerusalem as it descends already built and there will be no dead bodies with in it. Jer 30 is the day of Jacobs trouble and chapter 31 is a glimpse to that day.

4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the LORD, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’


‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
“This is Zion;
No one seeks her.” ’
18 “Thus says the LORD:
‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

Again a latter day prophecy that shows deliverance a rebuilding and Israel now being God's people because they are now brought into faith in Jesus and like Jospeph being revealed to his brothers this is what happens; it is glorious. If you look at all these passages and go back to Luke one and take the basic premise that Jesus is going to keep the promises, covenants, prophecies and oaths that Israel is delivered from their enemies to a time of holiness and security all their days. This is what I believe and have demonstrated is the destiny. I can put tons more passages that all tell the same story.

Scripture is so much clearer when one separates the Body of Christ from Israel.

When one tries to use terms like spiritual Israel, spiritual Jews, in order to make both the same, you will run into contradictions like above.

 

[Guojing]

This age is coming towards its end and there will be another one after. The next age will be different.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Scripture is so much clearer when one separates the Body of Christ from Israel.

When one tries to use terms like spiritual Israel, spiritual Jews, in order to make both the same, you will run into contradictions like above.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Scripture is so much clearer when one separates the Body of Christ from Israel.

When one tries to use terms like spiritual Israel, spiritual Jews, in order to make both the same, you will run into contradictions like above.

It does not seem very clear for you. Israel is the body of Christ who are all those who believe and follow God's Word under the new covenant promise.

 

[Guojing]

It does not seem very clear for you. Israel is the body of Christ who are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

You should answer his points in that post then.

 

[Clare73]

I`ve read every post on this thread.

Jes' jerkin' your chain.

 

[Clare73]

Scripture is so much clearer when one separates the Body of Christ from Israel.

When one tries to use terms like spiritual Israel, spiritual Jews, in order to make both the same, you will run into contradictions like above.

It's even clearer when you separate sin from judgment and condemnation.

 

[RickReads]

You should answer his points in that post then.

The keyword, often misunderstood is in verse 27. The word "when", points to a specific moment in time as prophecied in Zachariah when this event will take place.

 

[RickReads]

Jes' jerkin' your chain.

I knew that.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

10 lost tribes myth.

What happened to the lost tribes of Israel? | GotQuestions.org

Good article, mostly.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Where do we find "nations" being used for "Israel" there?

Gentile = nations (or tribes) in this and many applications. For example the term "Greek" used in the day often meant the world in general apart from the Jews, thus "to the Jew first but also to the Greek" includes everyone who is not a Jew regardless of their actual nationality. Thus Greek was more a cultural identity than an ethnic identity, much the way Jew described all who were culturally and religiously "Jewish" regardless of their nationality.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You should answer his points in that post then.

Already done please read the OP posts on page one tracing the origins of Israel in the flesh of the old covenant to Israel in the Spirit in the new covenant. Israel in the flesh of the old covenant is not Israel of the Spirit in the new covenant and is why Jesus says unless a man is born again they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3-7). If we are not a part of God's Israel born of the Spirit and not of the flesh we have no part in Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) or God's kingdom *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9.

 

[RickReads]

Already done please read the OP posts on page one tracing the origins of Israel in the flesh of the old covenant to Israel in the Spirit in the new covenant. Israel in the flesh of the old covenant is not Israel of the Spirit in the new covenant.

That is a moot point. The New Covenant will be applied to them at the appointed time and there is a large amount of scripture affirming that.

Replacement theology always runs to the old covenant without realizing that Israel is to be saved according to the New Covenant not the old.

 

[Guojing]

That is a moot point. The New Covenant will be applied to them at the appointed time and there is a large amount of scripture affirming that.

Replacement theology always runs to the old covenant without realizing that Israel is to be saved according to the New Covenant not the old.

Glad to encounter another here who don't believe that the New Covenant has already begun.