IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

[RickReads]

Hi your authoratative teaching is the one that takes a few verses to throw out the many that do indeed teach a before and after period separated by 1000 years. I have conceded that there is only one covenant in Christ for salvation but even the new covenant in Jer 31 declares Israel will never cease to be a nation in God's eyes and that He will not cast of the seed of Israel for all they have done this is followed up with a verse that notes the city Jerusalem will be rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the valleys and from that time on it will be holy and never torn down again. These bodies will be there in Rev at Armageddon; they are their in Zech when the LORD comes with his saints on the day Jerusalem is being overrun and God melts the enemies. Now the nations which are left must come to Jerusalem and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. The new river created flows east which would heal the dead sea and that is promised one day to be healed and a prosperous fishing area. At that time the 12 tribes are given their inheritance inside the know borders of Israel.
It even notes that the swamps and marshes wont be healed. When they get their lots of land the borders include the great sea. Now in the Jerusalem there is no sea. The salt pits and marshes are already there and the dead sea comes to life. There is no way this is the new Jerusalem 1 “Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance,” says the Lord GOD. For in the Ressurection there is neither marriage or child bearing we will be like the angles.

This is a short post but I have tired to establish Luke 1 when Jesus takes the throne of David and the prophecy of Zacharias that Jesus does deliver Israel from their enemies in keeping with the promises, prophecies and oaths. The futurist expected Israel to become a nation again. They expect the return of the sacrifice and a one world government to rise at the same time while also men will have reached the level of Sodom and Lot and will deserve the judgment that comes. The nation of israel exists and the nations are trying to forge this global reset. Everything about this reset is in line with anitichrist values and it includes a cashless system coming. Israel has everything ready to resume the daily sacrifices. All this is great evidence that the futurist view is correct. One idea I see here is that the millennium is a temporal kingdom and that is not true. At the end of the millennium when the New Jerusalem comes down Christ has not stopped reining. The kingdom changes locations and Jesus reigns forever.

Well, a good portion of your post I would agree with. However, the pseudo-Millenium that is being established in our day will not fulfill the Prophets.

The real thing will not happen until Jesus returns to Jerusalem and the new Jerusalem will not arrive until the time of the new earth.

What many people don`t realize is that the restoration of Israel is not about the spiritual state of the Israeli people. It`s about Jerusalem and the land around it. That land belongs to the Kingdom and it is government property.

The Bible teaches that when Jesus arrives there He will choose mercy for the Jews that are in hiding there and that Jerusalem will be the capital of the world.

 

[Clare73]

Where do we find "nations" referring to Israel in Scripture, that I may examine it?

 

[RickReads]

Where do we find "nations" referring to Israel in Scripture, that I may examine it?

Genesis 25:23

 

[Clare73]

Genesis 25:23

Thanks!

However, those "nations" are specifically stated as not being Gentiles, they being in Rebekah's womb.

 

[Davy]

But the one who wrestle with God was Jacob, not Abraham.

The Promises being transferred are the key. God gave Jacob the new name Israel to represent those Promises, as the name Jacob was still... used after he wrestled with The Angel. Not many notice that and ponder why his old name was still used, which was to mark the real purpose for the name Israel associated with God's Promises that began with Abraham. In 1 Chronicles 5, we are shown the reason the Birthright went to Joseph, and thus Joseph's two sons. God had promised Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations" in Genesis 35. Jacob promised that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", thus transferring God's Promise originally given to Jacob, onto Joseph's son Ephraim. Where did that Promise of many seed originate? It originated with God's Promises to Abraham and Isaac. And thus it is said that God is the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. So the Biblical proof is there if one will simply remember and think during their Bible studies.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Where do we find "nations" referring to Israel in Scripture, that I may examine it?

Carefully study Roman 9, including the reference to Hosea (the whole narrative).

 

[Clare73]

Carefully study Roman 9, including the reference to Hosea (the whole narrative).

Paul states, as does Peter, that the declaration of Hosea 1:9 and the promise of
Hosea 1:10, Hosea 2:23 to Israel are fulfilled in the Gentiles.(Romans 9:24-26; 1 Peter 2:10).

Where do you find "nations" being used for "Israel" there?

 

[RickReads]

Thanks!

However, those "nations" are specifically stated as not being Gentiles, they being in Rebekah's womb.

your post said ""nations" referring to Israel " implies you were looking for a verse calling Israel a nation.

However, the word nations appears multiple times in scripture. All the kingdoms in the world are called nations by the Bible.

And, nations descended from Esau are considered Gentiles.

 

[Clare73]

your post said ""nations" referring to Israel " implies
you were looking for a verse calling Israel a nation.

However, the word nations appears multiple times in scripture. All the kingdoms in the world are called nations by the Bible.

And, nations descended from Esau are considered Gentiles.

Thanks again.
I am looking for verses where "nations" (Gr: ethnos) refers to Israel rather than to Gentiles, in the context of a dialogue with OldWiseGuy that "Gentiles" (ethnos) in Romans 11:25 should be "Israel." (I think that is what he is saying.)

 

[RickReads]

Thanks again.
I am looking for verses where "nations" (Gr: ethnos) refers to Israel rather than to Gentiles, in the context of a dialogue with OldWiseGuy that "Gentiles" (ethnos) in Romans 11:25 should be "Israel." (I think that is what he is saying.)

The verse wouldn`t make sense if it did. You go off the cliff in scripture when you have to add, alter, or subtract words to a passage.

 

[Davy]

Where do we find "nations" referring to Israel in Scripture, that I may examine it?

Gen 35:9-11
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him.

10 And God said unto him, "Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel."

11 And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"
KJV

Jacob's new name was Israel. That makes that one "nation" to mean the nation of Israel. But it also means that "a company of nations" also means Israelite nations.

That prophecy passed on to Joseph's younger son Ephraim...


Gen 48:16-19
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, "Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head."

19 And his father refused, and said, "I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."
KJV

Jacob's name? His new name Israel is what Jacob was referring to, to name upon Joseph's two sons. And to Ephraim, the blessing of becoming "a multitude of nations". And since the name Israel was to be named upon Ephraim and Manasseh, that "multitude of nations" means Israelite type nations.

Without understanding how God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms and nations in the days of Solomon's son, and thus understand the Biblical differences between the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", they will never understand this. Apostle Paul of course understood it, and he well understood just how the "multitude of nations" under Ephraim would come about. Ephraim was the head tribe over the ten northern tribes. And the ten tribes is specifically is who the Book of Hosea is about, including believing Gentiles, both together as the sons of God in final.

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He saith also in Osee, 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV

 

[Clare73]

Gen 35:9-11--9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him. 10 And God said unto him, "Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel."
11 And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"
KJV

Thanks!

That would be fulfilled in the Gentile nations of those who are in Christ and the seed of Abraham/Jacob (Galatians 3:29), right?

 

[Davy]

Thanks!

That would be fulfilled in the Gentile nations of those who are in Christ and the seed of Abraham/Jacob (Galatians 3:29), right?

It's only partially fulfilled, because Abraham's inheritance isn't full until Christ returns.

The Promises God gave to Abraham flowed through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and wound upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. It was Ephraim that Jacob transferred the Gen.35 promise of "a multitude of nations" to. Ephraim was the head tribe over the northern ten tribes of the kingdom of Israel, which was scattered among the Gentiles never to return to the holy land. That is who and where God's Birthright followed. Find where Ephraim wound up, and you'll discover the multitude of nations that his seed was to become.

And recall per Matthew 21 with Jesus' parable of the vineyard, per Isaiah 5 the house of Israel (ten tribes under Ephraim) represents the vineyard in that parable that would be taken from Judah in Jerusalem, and instead given to another 'nation' that would bring forth its fruits.

 

[Clare73]

It's only partially fulfilled, because
Abraham's inheritance isn't full until Christ returns.

Of course, not until time ends.

The Promises God gave to Abraham flowed through Isaac, Jacob,

Actually, they were made personally to all three (Genesis 17:8; Genesis 26:3, 28:4 and Genesis 35:12).

Joseph, and wound upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. It was
Ephraim that Jacob transferred the Gen.35 promise of "a multitude of nations" to.

Where do we find that stated in Scripture?

Ephraim was the head tribe over the northern ten tribes of the kingdom of Israel, which was scattered among the Gentiles never to return to the holy land.

What about Jeremiah 3:18, Jeremiah 31:27, where Israel is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes) and
Ezekiel 37:15-22, where Ephraim is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes?

And Ezra 6:17 in the return from exile?

And Act 26:7, James 1:1 in the times of Jesus?

 

[Guojing]

The Promises being transferred are the key. God gave Jacob the new name Israel to represent those Promises, as the name Jacob was still... used after he wrestled with The Angel. Not many notice that and ponder why his old name was still used, which was to mark the real purpose for the name Israel associated with God's Promises that began with Abraham. In 1 Chronicles 5, we are shown the reason the Birthright went to Joseph, and thus Joseph's two sons. God had promised Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations" in Genesis 35. Jacob promised that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", thus transferring God's Promise originally given to Jacob, onto Joseph's son Ephraim. Where did that Promise of many seed originate? It originated with God's Promises to Abraham and Isaac. And thus it is said that God is the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. So the Biblical proof is there if one will simply remember and think during their Bible studies.

As I said, Paul called us the seed of Abraham, but not the seed of Jacob.

There is a clear reason for that, but if you don't agree, we can agree to disagree.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Paul states, as does Peter, that the declaration of Hosea 1:9 and the promise of
Hosea 1:10, Hosea 2:23 to Israel are fulfilled in the Gentiles.(Romans 9:24-26; 1 Peter 2:10).
?

These verses refer to Israel, specifically the "house of Israel", the people of the northern kingdom.

 

[Davy]

As I said, Paul called us the seed of Abraham, but not the seed of Jacob.

There is a clear reason for that, but if you don't agree, we can agree to disagree.

Oh no, I recognize that God chose a literal seed for His Promises to go through, and that was Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and finally to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. The difference is that those Promises first given to Abraham involve God's Blessings that go with The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And wherever The Gospel is, that is where those Blessings are also. And that involves both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus.

Now historically, those Promises and Blessings followed Abraham's seed, and once the majority of Jews in Jerusalem/Judea rejected Jesus Christ, The Gospel and majority of those Blessings left the holy land and instead went to where the majority of the children of Israel were scattered and accepted The Gospel. Historically, that was in the nations of Asia-Minor and Europe. And then from there, they sent ambassadors to other nations to preach The Gospel. Both Israelites and Gentiles in Christ Jesus did that. Thus the believing Gentiles have been included in those Promises involving The Gospel, and this is why Apostle Paul used the label "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2 for Gentiles that had come into those Promises and covenants once only promised to the seed of Israel.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

It's only partially fulfilled, because Abraham's inheritance isn't full until Christ returns.

The Promises God gave to Abraham flowed through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and wound upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. It was Ephraim that Jacob transferred the Gen.35 promise of "a multitude of nations" to. Ephraim was the head tribe over the northern ten tribes of the kingdom of Israel, which was scattered among the Gentiles never to return to the holy land. That is who and where God's Birthright followed. Find where Ephraim wound up, and you'll discover the multitude of nations that his seed was to become.

And recall per Matthew 21 with Jesus' parable of the vineyard, per Isaiah 5 the house of Israel (ten tribes under Ephraim) represents the vineyard in that parable that would be taken from Judah in Jerusalem, and instead given to another 'nation' that would bring forth its fruits.

The before and after picture in scripture is clear and your forcing the idea that spiritual Israel cancels national Israel is a error. We have red letter Bibles and we should come up with another color and change all the literal passages that you must now take as allegorical to maintain your ideas rather than holding both to be true. You could see that a huge volume of scriptures are in favor of the literal sense.

Jer 3 and a study just on Jerusalem before the kingdom and after the kingdom is a good place to engage. Jer 3
11 Then the LORD said to me, “Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say:
‘Return, backsliding Israel,’ says the LORD;
‘I will not cause My anger to fall on you.
For I am merciful,’ says the LORD;
‘I will not remain angry forever.
13 Only acknowledge your iniquity,
That you have transgressed against the LORD your God,
And have scattered your charms
To alien deities under every green tree,
And you have not obeyed My voice,’ says the LORD.
14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Now this passage notes Judah and Israel back in Jerusalem at the time they are multiplied and gathered back to the land of inheritance that given to your fathers. This happens when the ark of the covenant is not mentions or needed anymore. The promise that the same harlot that the LORD calls His bride comes when Jerusalem is called the Throne of the LORD and the nations will flow to it. Now if the kingdom age was now Jerusalem was largely a desolation form 70 AD until 1920's where the transformation begins which if you take a look at Eze 36 makes you think I hope...

6 “Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations.” 7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. 8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. 9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. 10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD. 12 Yes, I will cause men to walk on you, My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children.”
13 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they say to you, ‘You devour men and bereave your nation of children,’ 14 therefore you shall devour men no more, nor bereave your nation anymore,” says the Lord GOD. 15 “Nor will I let you hear the taunts of the nations anymore, nor bear the reproach of the peoples anymore, nor shall you cause your nation to stumble anymore,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”

The mountains of Israel were desolate a long time and indeed Israel is still the reproach of the nations.
This is on the way to being fulfilled. This is done in the days of Gog Magog invasion which is still future.

This is a long post but mostly scripture that if you read it and believe it as written makes sense.

16 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds; to Me their way was like the uncleanness of a woman in her customary impurity. 18 Therefore I poured out My fury on them for the blood they had shed on the land, and for their idols with which they had defiled it. 19 So I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the countries; I judged them according to their ways and their deeds. 20 When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the LORD, and yet they have gone out of His land.’ 21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

 

[Davy]

The before and after picture in scripture is clear and your forcing the idea that spiritual Israel cancels national Israel is a error.

Nah, I never said God's Promises to the chosen seed of 'believing' Israel was ever done away with. That idea is simply from your hatred that God moved His symbolic "vineyard" out of the possession of unbelieving orthodox Jews per Matthew 21.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The more complex the debate and contradiction you hold the shorter your answers get and they never address the scriptures brought up.

Jer 31 another passage for you to consider

Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

When was the city rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the whole valley? It says from that rebuilding it will be holy and never thrown down again. Now this cannot be New Jerusalem as it descends already built and there will be no dead bodies with in it. Jer 30 is the day of Jacobs trouble and chapter 31 is a glimpse to that day.

4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the LORD, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’


‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
“This is Zion;
No one seeks her.” ’
18 “Thus says the LORD:
‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

Again a latter day prophecy that shows deliverance a rebuilding and Israel now being God's people because they are now brought into faith in Jesus and like Jospeph being revealed to his brothers this is what happens; it is glorious. If you look at all these passages and go back to Luke one and take the basic premise that Jesus is going to keep the promises, covenants, prophecies and oaths that Israel is delivered from their enemies to a time of holiness and security all their days. This is what I believe and have demonstrated is the destiny. I can put tons more passages that all tell the same story.