Calvinism and its Secret Universalism

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said He’s a Shepherd and wouldn’t lose any.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

I’m not stretching.

No that’s not what He said, He said no one will snatch them out of My hand. He didn’t say they cannot leave His hand or that He will not cast them away.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, your understanding is impossible anyway.

Notice how I explain the verses you provide but you don’t explain the verses I provide.

 

[Hammster]

No that’s not what He said, He said no one will snatch them out of My hand. He didn’t say they cannot leave His hand or that He will not cast them away.

Do you understand what Shepherds do?

 

[Hammster]

Notice how I explain the verses you provide but you don’t explain the verses I provide.

Explain them in context.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you understand what Shepherds do?

Completely irrelevant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Explain them in context.

You decline to explain mine at all. At least I can give a viable explanation, you on the other hand don’t appear to be capable of explaining the verses I’ve quoted.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Explain them in context.

The context in which we interpret one verse cannot contradict another verse so we must interpret every verse in such a way that it does not contradict any other verse in scripture. The way you are interpreting these verses contradicts the verses I provided.

 

[Hammster]

Completely irrelevant.

It certainly wouldn’t have been irrelevant when Jesus said it.

 

[Hammster]

The context in which we interpret one verse cannot contradict another verse so we must interpret every verse in such a way that it does not contradict any other verse in scripture.

It must be understood in context.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It must be understood in context.

You can’t separate this message from all the other messages in the scriptures. Your interpretation of this message is contradicting the verses I provided. Now if you care to explain how your interpretation doesn’t contradict the verses I provided then we can begin to have an intelligent discussion about this passage, otherwise all your doing is ignoring the evidence I provided.

 

[Hammster]

You can’t separate this message from all the other messages in the scriptures. Your interpretation of this message is contradicting the verses I provided. Now if you care to explain how your interpretation doesn’t contradict the verses I provided then we can begin to have an intelligent discussion about this passage, otherwise all your doing is ignoring the evidence I provided.

You keep posting verses out of context. John 15, for example.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You keep posting verses out of context. John 15, for example.

Still no explanation

 

[Titus Dorn]

If the Father gives sheep to the Son, doesn’t that make the Son responsible? Especially if He calls Himself a Shepherd? It would seem to me that the number one responsibility of a Shepherd is to not lose sheep.

Sheep is a metaphor for the saved in Christ.

Sheep go astray and get lost. The Shepherd seeks to save the lost. But with men sometimes they desire to stay lost.

If God brings them back against their will.

Then the saved have no free will.

Parable of the sower, the seed represents the word of God. The different types of soil represents the hearts of those who hear the gospel.

Matthew 13:3
And He spake many things unto them in parables saying, Behold a sower went forth to sow ;

V5
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they SPRUNG UP, because they had no deepness of earth.
V6
And when the sun was up they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered AWAY.

V20
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word and immediately with JOY RECEIVETH IT.(THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST)

V21
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth(endureth in the gospel) FOR A WHILE: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word(gospel he is following) by and by he is offended.

This story of a persons conversion does not fit at all with calvinism.

You have a person who hears the gospel, receives it and endures in it.

But only for awhile.

As soon as persecution comes for believing in Jesus and His gospel.

He is offended by those who trouble him so he stumbles.

In other words he falls away, withered away.

 

[Hammster]

Sheep is a metaphor for the saved in Christ.

Sheep go astray and get lost. The Shepherd seeks to save the lost. But with men sometimes they desire to stay lost.

If God brings them back against their will.

Then the saved have no free will.

Parable of the sower, the seed represents the word of God. The different types of soil represents the hearts of those who hear the gospel.

Matthew 13:3
And He spake many things unto them in parables saying, Behold a sower went forth to sow ;

V5
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they SPRUNG UP, because they had no deepness of earth.
V6
And when the sun was up they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered AWAY.

V20
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word and immediately with JOY RECEIVETH IT.(THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST)

V21
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth(endureth in the gospel) FOR A WHILE: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word(gospel he is following) by and by he is offended.

This story of a persons conversion does not fit at all with calvinism.

You have a person who hears the gospel, receives it and endures in it.

But only for awhile.

As soon as persecution comes for believing in Jesus and His gospel.

He is offended by those who trouble him so he stumbles.

In other words he falls away, withered away.

Any Shepherd who loses a sheep, especially one given by the Father, is terrible at their job and can’t be trusted.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Calvinists have no assurance of their salvation.

The best a calvinist can do is have a little hope that they are of Gods chosen elect.

But they cannot know this with 100% assurance.

The only real way for a calvinist to know with certainty they are saved is to die.

A 2 or 3 point Baptist church in Martinsville Virginia had a very large following.

They believed that christians will sin but God will always draw them back to Him, OSAS.

They believe that the evidence of a true saved believer is not living a life in sin and doing works of righteousness.

They had a very well known preacher among baptists.

It became known publicly that this "pastor" was having an affair with one of the women in his church. The affair went on for many years.

He denied that it was true at first. Other men in the church worked with him to cover up his sin.

But in the end the truth won. So all he could do was publicly repent and apologize to the community and his church.

This man preached there for 25 or so years. Was well respected among the baptist.

All of the members and the community believed that he was saved. And all believed except for a few that really knew what he was up too. Was someone who would never practice willfull sin and go against God.

But he did just that.

So, in Calvinism there is always the possibility that you think you are of the elect. But it is possible that you are not and will sometime in the future turn towards willfull sin against God just as this pastor did. Just as Matt Slick's daughter did.

In the true good news of Jesus Christ. Jesus says some will fall away, and it is not because they were not true believers.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

There is no full assurance of salvation in this unbiblical theology.

1John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[zoidar]

Any Shepherd who loses a sheep, especially one given by the Father, is terrible at their job and can’t be trusted.

If we are to fully compare Jesus to a shepherd, it actually happens that shepherds lose sheep, even good shepherds do. The question is not really about shepherds, but what Jesus means. One view is the view you hold that no one that is saved can lose salvation, and the other view is that Jesus protects his saved ones, but they can choose to walk away, even no one can steal them from him.

I personally think it's hard (might even say impossible) to see from these verses which view is correct. So I guess I look at other passages and see what they say to get a better picture of what John 10:27-29 might say.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinists have no assurance of their salvation.

What do you think Calvinists base their assurance on?

 

[Hammster]

If we are to fully compare Jesus to a shepherd, it actually happens that shepherds lose sheep, even good shepherds do. The question is not really about shepherds, but what Jesus means. One view is the view you hold that no one that is saved can lose salvation, and the other view is that Jesus protects his saved ones, but they can choose to walk away, even no one can steal them from him.

I personally think it's hard (might even say impossible) to see from these verses which view is correct. So I guess I look at other passages and see what they say to get a better picture of what John 10:27-29 might say.

I think it’s a dangerous game to compare earthly shepherds to the Good Shepherd. Out of that group, only one is perfect.

 

[Titus Dorn]

1John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

A brother here is a brother in Christ. Gods word teaches that if a Christian hates his brother he does not have eternal life.

Hard to misunderstand.

 

[Hammster]

1John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

A brother here is a brother in Christ. Gods word teaches that if a Christian hates his brother he does not have eternal life.

Hard to misunderstand.

Jesus prays to His Father for His people. His Father always gives what His Son asks for.

Great concept to grab ahold of.